The denser the vines are planted.....

…the better or worse grapes you’ll get?

This seems to be open to some debate. Obviously, the closer the vines are planted, the more grapes per acre you’ll get. Your yield will increase.

But there are two notions at play. The closer the vines, the more competition there is for the vines to struggle for a finite amount of nutrients. More struggle generally equals better grapes. Yet more struggle also is just that; struggle.

Less dense plantings can mean less struggle and thriving vines. Some of the best vineyards in Montalcino, where single vineyard Brunello or Riservas are sourced, have less dense plantings than other vineyards on the estates producing Brunello normale. What’s the correlation here?

And finally…many vineyards in Napa are being planted densely simply because the land was deemed to be underutilized and acreage is so expensive. Is Napa able to “get away” with this simply because the climate is so favorable for grapes?

What do you all think about this?

I think the annual rainfall and the richness of the soil are likely going to dictate what is optimal?

I asked pretty much this same question of Jean-Michel Cazes over lunch on the 26th November 2009 (he was in Manila at the time), and he said that subject would provide for an interesting in-depth study. In short, he wasn’t aware at the time of any definitive study on the matter.

Best,

N

+1

Also, light.

It seems that in a vineyard that struggles to ripen fruit in cool years, if the vines are close, particularly the row spacing, they will shade the fruit zone when the sun is low in the sky during fall. The result seems to be that if the fruit is not ripe by a certain point, progress slows dramatically compared to other sites with more space between rows.

Anyone else see this?

My simple take as a winegrower is that you can only ask so much of a vine or a square foot of earth.

Vine spacing is one of the single most important decisions (after choosing the site) when it comes to wine quality. The goal is to create a perfectly balanced vine. “Balance” in this case means a lot of things but the simplest and most powerful measure is the ratio of canopy to fruit. Vines that are too close can lead to excessive canopy production and management. Vines that are too far apart might not properly fill the canopy or produce enough fruit.
There are many factors to consider when choosing spacing. For quality it’s important to understand the sites inherent vigor and then choose the right spacing and rootstock for the desired grape variety. Other practical factors such as farming, slopes and machinery are also very important.

WOW…making world class wine is complicated stuff. How many variables are there…

A nearly infinite number but those that relate to vineyard layout and site selection are some of the most qualitatively important yet often get less attention than other more glamorous but less impactful factors (such as those surrounding winemaking).

Compared to designing computer chips? Not that many. To me, the primary consideration is that “T” word - Terroir - a combination of soil and weather. And there is not so much you can do about that - it is what it is. After that, you are just finessing spacing, rootstock, clone, irrigation, trellising. Then fertilizing methods, pruning, shoot selection, cluster selection, tilling decisions, cover crop selection. Then finally timing of harvest, and an eye toward what type of product you want to produce.

How would someone planting a vineyard for the first time know a site’s “inherent vigor?” Wouldn’t that require a fair degree of clairvoyance on the part of the grower?

Bruce

Does vine spacing have anything to do with the Nitrogen problem which seems to be a culprit in both “stuck” fermentations and post-bottling reduction?

How would someone planting a vineyard for the first time know a site’s “inherent vigor?” Wouldn’t that require a fair degree of clairvoyance on the part of the grower?

Bruce

Not necessarily but it is hardly a well understood science at this point. Our most recent vineyard development was the site of an old apple orchard. The apple trees showed all of the signs of a low vigor site. The trees were dwarfed with large basal trunks that quickly tapered out above ground. Also the grapevines in a nearby vineyard are quite small and struggle to fill their trellis.
Meanwhile it is possible to test the soils and measure things like organic content, cation exchange capacity, nitrogen (and other nutrients) etc.
At the end of the day to some degree it still requires a judgment call unless you have an existing plantation on the site.

Cayuse claims to likely have the most vines per acre in North America with one of their new vineyards. Pretty fascinating. Cayuse Vineyards – About the Vineyards

Tom

I thought that dense plantings so the roots would do deep, and “green” harvesting to limit the amount of fruit, would cater for more nutricients from the soil to go to fewer grapes = higher quality juice? Guess its not that simple

Interesting all, and thanks Kevin for weighing in. I thought there would be more “concrete” data behind this, but it’s interesting to hear that’s not necessarily the case.

I believe Hubert Lamy makes a cuvee Haute Densite which is from plantations that is twice as dense as normal in Burgundy. It’s often his most intense wine. On the other hand, you have Leroy who would take it to the other extreme and not replant dead vines…

As others have said, density is only one question and it’s not as simple as one way is good, the other way is bad. It’s like the question of yields, which is also often oversimplified to the point of being useless.

There are studies and theories, sometimes conflicting, and as always, they tend to be for other farm crops that had bigger companies interested - it’s relatively recently that wine grapes have become so important economically.

But seems like economics has a more to do with it than probably anything else.

In any event, grapevines can be fairly vigorous, which is one reason they do so well in poor soils that other plants would have difficulty with - their natural vigor lets them do OK. In some of the old vineyards in Europe, people found over the years that when vines are grown on soils that have little available water and that are rather low in nutrients, dense planting helps restrain the natural vigor of the vines and forces them to produce many little fine root hairs to take up whatever nourishment they can. It seems almost counter-intuitive, but the idea is that the vines go into survival mode and produce fruit rather than vegetal growth. It’s not that the vines send roots way down deep so that they take up more “minerals”.

But just as importantly, people knew that they were going to lose vines to pests, viruses, etc., and they also wanted to get the maximum economic return on their given plots, and the vines weren’t going to get very big on the poor soil anyway, so planting a lot of vines was smart.

In richer soils, particularly if you’re going to have widely spaced rows for tractors, the vines can be and are a lot more vigorous. Then your problem is different - you’ll have a lot of vegetative growth. So what to do with that? You can prune, but if you prune all of the growth away, you may get dormant buds to start growing. So you have to direct the growth some way and your canopy management and training systems become really important. In Medoc, the lesser producers traditionally had about half the density of the classified growths because they had better soil. In CA, there was also wide spacing because especially on the valley floors, soils weren’t so bad.

But again there’s economics. Andy Beckstoffer pointed out that everyone knew they could plant vines much more closely than they did, but in the end they still needed to sell the grapes. Today, with land costs in places like Napa thru the roof, it makes a lot more sense to plant much more densely. And in fact, in Oregon, California, and Washington, denser planting is the trend – sometimes as much as five times more densely.

Of course back to the site itself – if you have very similar soil and exposure, but less rainfall than another site, you might want to plant less densely to conserve some of the stored water. Ultimately, it comes down to the individual vine more than anything – is the vine producing optimally-ripened grapes, given whatever you’ve done to it? Up to some point, which varies based on all the other factors, you can increase both vine density and vineyard yields w/out sacrificing any quality. And you can sometimes increase vine density while retaining yield but with luck, you get better grapes so earn more money for the work.

All in all, before you can say anything about density, you have to take into account the natural condition of the soil - drainage, composition, nutrient potential, and then the slope of the site - flat, north facing, south facing, east, etc., and then the orientation of your rows depending on what kind of sunlight you want to capture/avoid, and then the seasonal climate - likelihood of frost early/late, and then the rootstocks you’re planning to put in - a very important consideration that can attenuate some of the other conditions, and then the scion clones you select, and then the training system you plan for the canopies.

Then in some places, training and densities are regulated, so you have to comply with those rules whether or not they make sense today or ever did. It’s nicely romantic to imagine that grandpa knew everything there was to know about grape growing, but a lot of things are just traditional or have become established rules only because of habit or incomplete understandings of what was really going on, and of course, because of political deals. I’d suspect the last is probably more important than any of the other factors. Grandpa may or may not have known what he was doing, but if he was a sharp political operator, he’d manage to swing things his way.

In the end, it’s often an economic decision as much as anything else. It’s more costly to plant a given vineyard densely because you’re buying more plants. Then you have more to take care of as well. But if that helps limit their growth and per-vine yields and you get better grapes, although your initial investment was higher, you earn more in the end.

As to whether current conditions are optimal - that’s a really interesting question and again depends on the specific vineyard. Could densities in many vineyards be changed? Could trellising be changed? Could rootstocks and scions be changed?

Probably in many, perhaps even most cases, the answer would be yes. You don’t know if you made the right decision until you have a few harvests in and at that point, who wants to start again? You’d have to have the money and the obsession of a Bill Gates to keep trying until you got it just right, and even he doesn’t have the lifetime to do it.

Fascinating stuff!

The norm in California a generation or two ago was for quite wide spacing. I don’t know if that was because land was (then) cheap and big tractors were used, or because someone at UC Davis declared that the perfect method for all sites. I think that when people had to replant due to phylloxera, that prompted a reexamination of spacing, and by that point a lot more people in California had been to Europe and were more aware of Old World practices. In any event, you suddenly heard a lot of people extolling the virtues of narrow spacing, and you could see the difference as you drove up Route 29 in Napa. From those comments, I’d assumed that close spacing was all better. So it’s interesting to hear that it’s more complicated than that.

Andrew’s point about exposure to light brought to mind German vineyards. Though the growing areas there are pretty far north and sunlight is at a premium, the vines there are generally quite tightly spaced. I guess the extremely steep slopes solve the shading problem.

If 3’ x 3’ is the “highest density” planting, as Cayuse claims, then there are quite a few vineyards in the Willamette Valley with similar density. Parts of Archery Summit Estate, I know for sure, are planted at this density. A block of Archery Summit’s Red Hills Estate was this density until a couple years ago when they removed every other row. I know I’ve heard of similar planting densities at other vineyards in the area, but can’t recall which ones.

Our Skyline vineyard is planted 3’x2’ (or 7000 vines per acre) with Pinot.