The 2023 VDP Grosser Ring - Mosel Wine Auction Results Thread

Just looked it up…

seems to be 2 different Kisten, right?

Auction one is

N33 Von den großen Lagen Versteigerungskiste (je 2 Flaschen)
2022 SCHUBERTSLAY | Piesport Riesling GG VDP.GROSSE LAGE® Mosel
2021 PETTENTHAL | Nierstein Riesling GG VDP.GROSSE LAGE® Rheinhessen
2018 SCHUBERTSLAY | Piesport Riesling Réserve VDP.GROSSE LAGE® Mosel
120 6 x 0,75 l 600,00 €

whereas regular Kiste is

2021: je 1 AbtsE GG, G-Max, Hubacker GG, Hipping GG, Morstein GG, Kirchspiel GG
2022: 2 Flaschen Morstein GG, je 1 G-Max, Hubacker GG, Hipping GG, Kirchspiel GG

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Yes, they are different

Maybe this is a bit of a stupid question but for those of you with experience of the auction wines, if you would compare to regular bottlings… try to disregard the rarity thing… are the auction wines significantly better?

Depends on what you are looking for.

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A lot of the auction wines are truly special. Some are a significant step up from the normal bottlings, others are better that the normal bottlings, but one is really chasing marginal gains.

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It doesn’t always work out this way- but usually they are more subtle and complex. Take Willi Schaefer for example- I have never seen a situation where the Auction Spatlese has the same degree of volume and mass as the GD Spatlese #5. Stylistically, it is more akin to GD Spatlese #10, but far more nuanced and detailed than any of the commercial releases. It is immediately evident if you taste them all side by side, but it is really only with age that it is on full display.

Given the additional subtlety and complexity- I also find the wines tend to need a bit more care about decanting in order to get the full effect. The 1999 Willi Schaefer Auslese Auction is just now coming into its own- but only after 6-8 hours of decanting does it fully blossom. If you were to taste it right at opening, and again 3 hours later, and then again after 6+ hours- you would think it was 3 different wines. That is a more extreme example, but as is the case if you go out and buy a very high performance sportscar- ownership and enjoyment requires a lot more than just writing the check.

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Thanks Tom, very helpful! I see your points :pray:
It’s kind of what I imagined in the best case scenarios.

Thanks Rodrigo, it’s all in the details. That little extra can be very meaningful

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More or less what I wrote. I never had any of auction wines. I keep an open mind and remain curious.
Since I can’t compare myself I’m keen and would be happy to know your thoughts if you care to share.

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Overall I have been very limited in my auction wine purchases. I actually attended the Nahe auction back in 2003 (2002 vintage) and it really didn’t make a huge impression of a meaningful step up at the time, with the exception of a few wines that went for very high prices. That first impression (and a deep satisfaction with the non-auction wines of my favorite producers) has kept me from diving in deeply in later years. The few times I have, or have been privileged to share auction bottles from other people, the impressions have largely remained the same. There’s just not enough of a jump in quality to justify it for me. Yes the Willi Schaefer auction wines are delicious, but I am quite happy with the normal bottlings.

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Thanks David, pretty much my guess till now as well, but it sparked my curiosity to hear what those with experience felt and if a guess/expectation worth reconsidering.

It’s complicated and a short speculative answer isn’t going to do you much good. Here are some of the specifics on producers that I’ve followed for the last 7 or 8 auctions:

Prum - some producers are offering the “best” barrel of a specific wine produced in a given year. So Prum Spatlese for example is typically the barrel of wehlener sonnenuhr that Katharina prefers over the others and thinks auction-worthy for some reason. It’s her judgment you’d have to ask her if she things that means “better”. Some years it’s leaner than the non-auction. Some (most?) years it’s sweeter. You could buy 3 of each of her wines from the vintage, including the auction wines, for a reasonable price. If you are price sensitive along the lines of the difference in amounts between auction and non-auction, it’s a big jump. I’ve found that some of the Prum auction wines show as incredibly special, as do some of the non-auction wines, and many are difficult to evaluate young and almost all turn out well. To make it more complicated, sometimes Prum offers wines for which there is no regular version like an LGK or TBA. So they can’t be better or worse than the regular version. They have to stand on their own as incredible, remarkable, small production world class wines of unmatched character that anyone can have regardless of allocation if they are willing to bid. Seems ok, right?

Egon - the Kabi is old vines. How old? I have no idea. How not old are the non-auction wines? No idea. As the young vines become older does their production go into auction wine such that the auction wine will eventually be the larger production, say in 2059? No idea. But the wine is typically very good. I found it a little thin in 2022 but in most years it’s better for me. Anyway, the auction wine comes from the same parcel every year, right? So a different theory than Prum. Egon also brings other wines to auction. Those might be a barrel selection. They are worth every penny if you have enough pennies. On a dollar per dollar basis, the Egon sweet wines crush your average, oxidized grand cru white burg. Magical.

Grunhaus - I have it on good authority that the kabi is a barrel selection. But they kind of know where the grapes that make up that barrel will come from because it’s similar every year. So a cross between Prum theory and Egon theory! In most years the auction kabi is leaner than the non-auction in most recent years but not ‘22 I think. And then they will barrel auslese separately if the character demands it. And some may come to auction. ‘18 is a good vintage to compare a non-auction and auction numbered auslese as 6 have been released and there are at least 3 to come and all are very good. Sometimes there is an eiswein or TBA at auction. They are likely very good to great. The wines for auction are chosen carefully and the house is on a roll.

Zilliken- I’ve found the auction auslese to be deeply flawed for the past two years. Is it better than the non-auction? Let’s hope not.

Fritz Haag - I’m not sure how he distinguishes auction from non-auction - parcel vs barrel. I will ask rather than speculate. I think the non-auction kabi may be under screw cap. The auction is under cork. “Better” here is probably in the eye of the beholder. For the past three vintages the wines have been impressive both within and without the auction.

Lauer - in ‘22 the best wine is a non-auction wine and I think that will be the case in a lot of years given what he’s doing with lambertskirch (although he could have course bring it to auction). The non-auction kabi is typically leaner than the non-auction, particularly so in ‘22. The 23/24 strike me as leaner than non-auction counterparts but what do I know. Did he make anything higher than auslese and bring it to auction? If so, it’s likely profound. Anyway, his auction kabi and spat is inexpensive enough that it probably falls out of the general conversation of whether the auction is worth the extra tariff. The auction wines are affordable.

Schloss-Lieser - all doctor spat is an auction wine. No non-auction version. So no counterpart to compare. It’s great. I don’t know that an auction kabi from domprobst is his best kabi. It’s good, but some years there is a doctor non-auction kabi and he makes lots of wine, most of it very good. Some years he brings a wehlener auslese or LGK to auction and those for me are “can’t miss” but you have to like the style, which can be richer and more baroque then the current trend.

That’s what comes off the top of my head.

Alex

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That’s just great Alexander - thanks, and very nuanced educative!

It’s also up to discussion if auction wine is actually the producer’s favourite (prädikat) wine of the vintage or more like something that buyers will expect to auction wine stylistically be like. I have tasted / rated some young auction kabinetts blind side by side with regular ones from the same vintage and have still preferred regular bottling from same or different producer. Result could have been completely different with some bottle age but I have not enough data for analyze that. And yeah Egon never included in those tastings :sweat_smile:. It’s easy to rate wine higher when you see auction sticker on it but for my preferences for example Lauer, Schloss Lieser, Othegraven & Grünhaus has so solid regular kabinett lineups that I have no need to pay extra for auction wines.

Edit: One thing that I’m also insterested of is how many auction buyers has also tasted the regular lineups of estates to make their decission of superioty of the auction wine compared to regular ones. I have not seen many Othegraven or Schloss Lieser tasting notes here lately :sweat_smile:.

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I don’t have Alex’s patience :wink:

A way I have explained it in the past is that if you can’t appreciate the difference between Willi Schaefer GD Spat #5 and #10 then don’t bother with the auction wines. And if you don’t understand the comment definitely don’t bother. :wink:

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At some point next year I’m planning on doing a little tasting comparing auction & non auction for recent vintages. I’ve gotten some Lauer, Schaefer, Busch, and a few others. Sorry, no Egon Müller or Keller. Maybe will compare to non-auction Prüm. Of course this won’t speak to what these wines are like with age, but I don’t have any with age. I’ll try to form a few opinions but likely will continue to lean on you all!

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I try to do that in the weeks before each auction to test my assumptions and see how I want to bid. It’s a good experience. Highly recommended.

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It was my first year bidding and pretty happy with the outcome. Both Fritz Haag and WS kabinetts came in much lower than the suggested bid price.

No luck in Nahe auction though with Keller.

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The Haag and Willi kabis were good choices, both from a relative value and absolute perspective. Well done, Dinesh.

Just so I don’t have to make a new topic as most of the people reading this are the ones that may have an answer.

I’ve got a bottle of 2002 Emrich-Schönleber Halenberg Auslese Goldkapsel *** Auction.

No notes anywhere that I can find. Anyone had it? Anything you can tell me about it? In it’s drinking window I would assume?