Terry Thiese says this and I say this. Who is right?

[C_0_R_E_Y_M]

@Jonathan Loesberg

I’m sorry, but I think this is nitpicking. I have no doubt Thiese was expressing self-satisfaction. But if you take the hyperboles as just that, he was saying that when he began in the business, he could find one great winemaker after the other with no great difficulty. Now one has to search hard to find a talented one that doesn’t have representation. This really doesn’t deny, that there are new winemakers each year and some of these new ones will be talented and an importer, working hard, could still find them, just that German wine isn’t undiscovered territory. I know he made a more extreme statement. People do when they express thoughtless self-satisfaction. But if you want to, you can tell what he means.

But then you don’t get to be indignant and self-righteous. And then you don’t have a chance to start a thread where you can link to and quote from your “manifesto” multiple times.

[David_Bu3ker]

Let the record show…I did not post that…I did not post that.

[todd_waldmann]

@Neal.Mollen

Please don’t close this thread. I just made a second batch of popcorn

With truffle salt? That’s my favorite.

[Dav1dZ]

@Corey Miller

But then you don’t get to be indignant and self-righteous. And then you don’t have a chance to start a thread where you can link to and quote from your “manifesto” multiple times.

Exactly. For future reference, the correct way to self-promote on WB is to get people to visit you or to meet them at a wine tasting dinner, get them to fall in love with your “story”, then have them post the equivalent of this thread which you can then demurely post in, but only as a “response”. That way we can all pretend that its not shameless self-promotion and brand-building.

[Nowell_Karten]

@D. Zylberberg

…For future reference, the correct way to self-promote on WB is to get people to visit you or to meet them at a wine tasting dinner, get them to fall in love with your “story”, then have them post the equivalent of this thread which you can then demurely post in, but only as a “response”. That way we can all pretend that its not shameless self-promotion and brand-building.

[Matcohen]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of these threads that lasted more than 10 comments where someone didn’t criticize someone in the wine business for self-promotion. Part of being clever is being original.

[David_Bu3ker]

@Matcohen

I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of these threads that lasted more than 10 comments where someone didn’t criticize someone in the wine business for self-promotion. Part of being clever is being original.

Well perhaps if it wasn’t blatant self promotion, complete with posse, that wouldn’t happen.

Oops…that time it was me who said it.

[J_B_a_s_k_a_m]

Lyle Fass would have posted this same subject matter before he was importing. He has not changed or suddenly become just a shameless shill or a charlatan. (Though he is certainly trying to build his business.) Why all the doubt to the contrary? He has always spoken his mind, rather bluntly. Remember the years on eBob before its implosion?

Along with Mr. Thiese I know of no stronger advocate for fine German wines. Just my two cents…

[Matcohen]

You know David, I work all day in the technology business and this type of thought leadership and discussion is commonplace. I’ve never seen anyone complain that anyone else was self-promoting. Certainly, there is back and forth on ideas but there this kind of bitter backbiting just isn’t seen.

In wine, every thread I look at where a member of the industry says anything, there are these silly attacks. No one wants to engage about the truth of anything. When I talk to thought leaders in wine, so many of them refuse to bother with the boards for this very reason. And who suffers? Wine buyers for one because they are missing out on valuable content. But also people in the wine business who are trying to sell quality wines suffer. Why? Because the more consumers know about wine, the more they enjoy it and the more they spend.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why so many people in the wine business are so bitter. It’s pretty sad.

[b_castner]

@todd waldmann

@Neal.Mollen

Please don’t close this thread. I just made a second batch of popcorn

With truffle salt? That’s my favorite.

That and extra butter!

[Scott_Frank]

@Matcohen

You know David, I work all day in the technology business and this type of thought leadership and discussion is commonplace. I’ve never seen anyone complain that anyone else was self-promoting. Certainly, there is back and forth on ideas but there this kind of bitter backbiting just isn’t seen.

In wine, every thread I look at where a member of the industry says anything, there are these silly attacks. No one wants to engage about the truth of anything. When I talk to thought leaders in wine, so many of them refuse to bother with the boards for this very reason. And who suffers? Wine buyers for one because they are missing out on valuable content. But also people in the wine business who are trying to sell quality wines suffer. Why? Because the more consumers know about wine, the more they enjoy it and the more they spend.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why so many people in the wine business are so bitter. It’s pretty sad.

Boom! And there it is. Clearly explicated.

[Ken_V]

@Scott Frank

@Matcohen

You know David, I work all day in the technology business and this type of thought leadership and discussion is commonplace. I’ve never seen anyone complain that anyone else was self-promoting. Certainly, there is back and forth on ideas but there this kind of bitter backbiting just isn’t seen.

In wine, every thread I look at where a member of the industry says anything, there are these silly attacks. No one wants to engage about the truth of anything. When I talk to thought leaders in wine, so many of them refuse to bother with the boards for this very reason. And who suffers? Wine buyers for one because they are missing out on valuable content. But also people in the wine business who are trying to sell quality wines suffer. Why? Because the more consumers know about wine, the more they enjoy it and the more they spend.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why so many people in the wine business are so bitter. It’s pretty sad.

Boom! And there it is. Clearly explicated.

And without a hint of self-interest!

[DougS]

@Matcohen

You know David, I work all day in the technology business and this type of thought leadership and discussion is commonplace. I’ve never seen anyone complain that anyone else was self-promoting. Certainly, there is back and forth on ideas but there this kind of bitter backbiting just isn’t seen.

In wine, every thread I look at where a member of the industry says anything, there are these silly attacks. No one wants to engage about the truth of anything. When I talk to thought leaders in wine, so many of them refuse to bother with the boards for this very reason. And who suffers? Wine buyers for one because they are missing out on valuable content. But also people in the wine business who are trying to sell quality wines suffer. Why? Because the more consumers know about wine, the more they enjoy it and the more they spend.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why so many people in the wine business are so bitter. It’s pretty sad.

If you can’t see the way the start of this thread comes off, you’re either not paying attention or you are personally invested. Well, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I guess it could be both…

There’s plenty of engagement here about the “truth” (strong, educated opinions) of many things. It works best without an obvious knock on the face of a competing business.

I don’t doubt that Lyle is honestly worked up about this topic, but those feelings could have been put forth differently and elsewhere. Seriously, it looks disingenuous for you to pretend not to see that.

[Dav1dZ]

Geez, it almost sounds like you work for Lyle’s busi… Oh, never mind.

@Matcohen

You know David, I work all day in the technology business and this type of thought leadership and discussion is commonplace. I’ve never seen anyone complain that anyone else was self-promoting. Certainly, there is back and forth on ideas but there this kind of bitter backbiting just isn’t seen.

In wine, every thread I look at where a member of the industry says anything, there are these silly attacks. No one wants to engage about the truth of anything. When I talk to thought leaders in wine, so many of them refuse to bother with the boards for this very reason. And who suffers? Wine buyers for one because they are missing out on valuable content. But also people in the wine business who are trying to sell quality wines suffer. Why? Because the more consumers know about wine, the more they enjoy it and the more they spend.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why so many people in the wine business are so bitter. It’s pretty sad.

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Matcohen

You know David, I work all day in the technology business and this type of thought leadership and discussion is commonplace. I’ve never seen anyone complain that anyone else was self-promoting. Certainly, there is back and forth on ideas but there this kind of bitter backbiting just isn’t seen.

In wine, every thread I look at where a member of the industry says anything, there are these silly attacks. No one wants to engage about the truth of anything. When I talk to thought leaders in wine, so many of them refuse to bother with the boards for this very reason. And who suffers? Wine buyers for one because they are missing out on valuable content. But also people in the wine business who are trying to sell quality wines suffer. Why? Because the more consumers know about wine, the more they enjoy it and the more they spend.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out why so many people in the wine business are so bitter. It’s pretty sad.

This is a residual, vestigial thing from the Parker board. The guy made complaining about conflicts of interest part of his brand with the whole consumer-advocacy, Ralph Nader thing. When he became the leader of his own cult of personality on his bulletin board, it became sort of a pastime there for people to seek his approval by playing amateur conflict-of-interest police. Sometimes it would seem as though every third thread was something along the lines of “Some guy just said this! Isn’t that a conflict of interest!” For some reason this obsession continues even though Parker is no longer around.

[Matcohen]

Doug - my post was not just about this thread. It applies to pretty much every extended thread I’ve paid attention to over the years.

Lyle is not knocking Terry’s business. He’s a big fan of many of Terry’s producers and has sold many of his wines (some of them to me). Lyle certainly thinks that Terry is a historic figure in the US wine industry.

Having said that, there is a legitimate question about whether or not Germany is continuing to produce great new winemakers or whether the only ones worth drinking are the established big boys (e.g. JJ Prum, Fritz Haag, Donnhoff, Willi Schaefer, etc.). A second question is whether the established terroirs (e.g. Middle Mosel, Nahe, Rheingau) are the only ones worth drinking or whether up and coming regions are worth trying (e.g. Rheinhessen, Baden reds, Lower Mosel).

Like it or not, Terry Thiese is a public figure. He made a very controversial comment in an interview that was posted on the most frequented wine pricing website in the US. He certainly knew that when he said it. Lyle blogs controversial opinions all the time and has those posted on forums such as this one. People disagree with him and Lyle does not feel that they are attacking his business or him personally. They are disagreeing with his ideas.

As for where these ideas could have been posted. If you shouldn’t post them in a forum like this, why not? If this forum is not the place to post controversial ideas like this one, what is it for? And where should they be posted?

It just seems that if we spent as much time discussing wine as we do who should post what and whether or not they are being sincere, we’d all be a heck of a lot more enlightened.

[jcoley3]

Keith,

Your post crossed over with what I was about to post, which would have said…

Wow. For all some people in this thread were vocal critics of Squires as moderator and the Parker board, in general, they really internalized some of the attitudes. Probably not intentional on their part, but Lyle has made his interest in the question raised obvious. Pointing it out is, well, pointing out the obvious. Not sure why people seem to think this is a “gotcha!” moment for doing so.

[Matcohen]

David - were you being ironic or unintentionally proving my point?

[jcoley3]

Oh, and since no doubt some people will care, I buy wine from Lyle and am one of the biggest buyers of Terry’s wines, - Germany, Austria and Champagne in the middle of the country.

[Matcohen]

Pardon my ignorance, but wasn’t this Board started because of dissatisfaction with the stupidity of the Parker Boards? If so, it’s doubly sad that this aspect of Parker has been replicated.