still rosé: does it achieve the same heights as white?

Of course the answer to the original question is no. But I do think that Tempier Rose has an enjoyability, complexity, elegance and cerebral quality that compares well with good reds and whites at that price point. I thought when Dehlinger bottled a couple of pinot roses, those were among the best $15 wines I’ve ever had.

No, never.

I had some of the best Rosés, even from Champagne, but also Tavel, Bandol, Rhone, Austria, Germany etc. - but I never had one that wowed me … or even was really exciting.

The problem might be the relationship between the (moderate) tannins and the fruit and acidity … the texture is rarely really perfect, either nice acidity with slightly bitter tannins, or good structure, but (too) noticable acidity …

Also Rosés age not very well, and great wines shoud be able to age and develope more depth and complexity …

My consume of Rosés per year now can be counted with one hand … but a good Rosé at the right time with the right food can be excellent …

Yes, see Valentini Cerasuolo.

[quote="GregT"I would suspect that if you had a vintage that wasn’t going to be an excellent red wine vintage but you wanted to take a chance, you might change your plans, harvest a bit earlier, and make a rosado. Not as an afterthought or a bleed-wine, but as the main point. In that case, one might be able to achieve something pretty interesting. But even in those cases, it would probably be a one-off, as there is so much good white wine produced. [/quote]

I think this comes close to the point that is being danced around. Does anyone take their best fruit and make a rose with it? Would anyone dare sacrifice a crop from a top notch red variety vineyard in order to try and make a great rose? Until that is done by many people consistently then we really don’t know the complete answer to the original question. We do know that of what we are given today rose does not achieve the same heights as whites or reds.

On Tempier, they come close but I suspect that has a lot to do with the Mourvedre being used which is a hearty red variety. I don’t find Tempier necessarily very far above other Bandol roses and as such think they have priced themselves out of being a value.

I like the LdH rose but find it more of a curiosity than a great wine. Its nice that it ages well and holds up but it does not seem to gain much in the process and makes me wonder if it would be better served as a younger wine.

I agree that most great wine should be able to age, but that shouldn’t disclude a wine from being consider great. What if a sand castle is the greatest piece of art ever, but is washed away 6 hours later due to the tide? Can it not be consider great?

Still rosé is an underrated style of wine. For some reason sparkling rosé is generally considered “better” than non-rosé (look at prices…), but few people think that rosé of pinot noir cannot be as good as red pinot noir, let alone whites (as this thread is supposing). Sure, great rosé is hard to make, but two immediately come to mind. The Skewis rosé and the SQN Pontiff are rosés that I would easily classify as great and at the same level if not better than great whites. [snort.gif]

And of course there are some fantastic Jura reds that look like roses, do they count?

I think there is a lot of merit to Greg’s point. But, all things the same, the Tempier Bandol red is a far better wine to me that their Rose (and I really used to love the Rose, not such much at current prices) I prefer to not over think Rose and enjoy it as part of summer, when I don’t want wine weighing me down.

Yes, in Tavel - because they are not entitled to do anything else with it (so no chance to compare it with a Tavel blanc neener )

But even the best Tavels have been short of really great … but certainly excellent - and often very enjoyable.

Well, no IMHO, because one of the most important components of greatness (in art) is the fact, that it is considered to be great not only by a few people but MANY - and over quite a long period of time … usually decades, even generations or centuries.

(if you consider a painting great, but nobody cares about it in one years of time - ir was great only for you and nobody else …)

Ok, one could takes pics, make movies of it etc. … but with wine?

Yeah, I considered Tavel briefly but I don’t know how good the fruit is. Maybe the terroir isn’t so good so that is why there are rose only? [wink.gif]

No, I´d rather would say that the terroir in Tavel is PERFECt for Rosé !
It´s (as far as I´m concerned) the only Appellation in France for Rosé only !

Even in Marsannay - another famous Rosé AOC - I usually find the reds much more interesting when from a fine producer.

I understand. I think there might be sort of a chicken and egg issue here. There is one strictly rose AOC but until producers commit fruit from top notch vineyards from other regions to rose strictly we will not know if they rise to the heights of whites or reds. Or maybe someone figured out the answer to that long ago?

Lots of art (of which the greatness is subjective) is ephemeral. Broadway plays. Christo. Thomas Keller’s food. And to quote Alec Baldwin, “Chalk is a lost medium.” If Picasso had created sidewalk chalk art would it not be considered great?

Take flowers for example. A beautiful flower that stays in bloom for weeks upon weeks is a great flower. What about an even more beautiful flower that only lasts for two days? Can’t it be a great flower, too? I’m not saying that rosés are the greatest wines in the world, but they can be great wines regardless of aging potential.

Placing an artificial threshold of aging as a benchmark for greatness is stupid. What is the definition of ageability? 5 years? 25 years? 500 years? Lafite doesn’t age 500 years, therefore it isn’t great. [smileyvault-ban.gif] Just to play devil’s advocate (I’m not already?), perhaps a wine that takes 20 years to show its best shouldn’t be considered great because for a majority of its life it was less than it could be. Is a bottle of Hearty Burgundy that somehow lasted 20 years great because it is drinkable [snort.gif] 2 decades after it should have been used in a stew?

Sure the ability to age and increase in quality with age can help make a wine great, but lack there of shouldn’t necessarily exclude a wine (or an entire style!) from being considered great… [soap.gif]

you will soon list for me the pavement chalk painters with the greatness of a Picasso or Dali - and also the many Rosé wines with the greatness of a Montrachet, Haut Brion blanc, Clos St.Hune, Roussanne VV, Kellerberg or Honivogl …

I´m curiously listening … [wink.gif]

(BTW: someone said to me once: “The most common word in American English is GREAT …” - maybe here´s the reason … [scratch.gif] )

I know of no great sidewalk chalk artists, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist…

Also, I never said that there were many great rosés, but that great rosés could exist. I do think that LdH, SQN, Tempier, Kracher Rosenmuskateller and Chateau d’Esclans (haven’t tasted, but read good things about) could perhaps be considered amongst the greatest wines in the world as rosés (and am sure there are others). Again, what is it about sparkling wine that being a rosé is often a determiner of higher quality, but not for still wine?

I am just responding in the affirmative to the opening post that, yes still rosé wines can “achieve the complexity of the great white wines of the world?” You are more than welcome to disagree… [wink.gif]

Give me a break. Look at the common responses here. They are almost all a flat out NO. If they are a yes, they are conditioned on:

The best rose I’ve ever had in my entire life was on par with some great whites. That should sum it up. The best examples of red and white wine run rough shod over rose. The best examples of rose can barely even compete with some great whites. The absolutely vast majority of roses aren’t remotely close to great white wines, and are shuffled off into their own little category of “it’s pretty good with, like, some salad or shrimp or something on a really uncomfortably hot day, especially when I’m already 4 beers deep and hanging by the pool with my girlfriend/wife who isn’t really hard core about wine.”

I’m in agreement on all of these points. My thinking originally was that if Tempier doesn’t provide the quality that I would want for its price tag ($40-$50 locally, which buys me some darned good white wine, or I can get just-as-good French rosé for less money), is there some similarly or higher priced pink wine that does? A couple have been mentioned here that I will make an effort to try, at least the Cerasuolo recommendation since it seems to be based on experience rather than price, but so far, I haven’t seen it. I poured a LdH for someone whose palate I respect and, though I made sure he was aware of the nerd factor, his response was basically “interesting, but past its prime”. I am sure many will disagree, and that’s a matter of preference, but I am not convinced it has become better with age, I think just different (and I do like it).

I disagree! [wink.gif]

I have tasted many vintages of Tempier rosé … and I certainly would count it among the very best Rosés in France - and as much as I always enjoyed it … it is light years behind the greatness of Cabassaou, Tourtine, Migoua … not to speak of other great wines white or red …
(all IMHO).
Krachers Rosenmuskateller is for me not in the category rosé wine but sweet wine … and even here - comparing it e.g. to the Grand Cuvée and Krachers other TBAs it was never my favorite by far.
I have tasted most of the famous and expensive rosé Champagnes, from Ayala … to Veuve LGD - and I would always prefer the white version (with the exception of pairing with some food).

Fair enough. [cheers.gif] Here’s to the continued search for great wines, from wherever and whatever color they may be!

To revisit this question, I recently attended a Provence tasting and tried the 2010 Chateau d’Esclans Garrus Rosé. This bottling retails for about $100. The same producer does a bottling that sells for about $75, which I thought tasted like overextracted, overoaked Provence Rosé. The Garrus, however, was fantastic. It does also see some oak aging, but the subtle toastiness is extremely well integrated with complex aromas and flavors quite reminiscent of a very good Chateauneuf du Pape Blanc. The wine does not taste to me like rosé at all, and I think I could find a significantly less expensive CdP (Vieux Telegraphe, perhaps) that would give me a similar experience, but I did think this wine qualified as truly outstanding. So, I guess it’s possible, but I still think it is very rare for still rosé to achieve that type of complexity and overall quality.

I just tried a bottle of this the other night. Was it world-class? I don’t know, I wasn’t expecting world-class because I didn’t pay world-class price for it. What I do know is that it was well worth the $26 (delivered), and would stack up well with some of the best reds or whites I have purchased at a similar price.