I always enjoy your comments and really miss the days when we could taste together.
I agree about California, especially when it comes to Syrah, but I do need to point out that the price (while they may not be equal to that of the prestige bottles of the Rhone) are starting to get pretty high. Also the wines have become heavily allocated. I find myself often begging my distributors for more wine so I can buy some without taking away from our customers.
Then there’s Grenache, which I personally love the traditional Rhone blends that lean on Grenache but blend in Syrah and the BIG mix. The problem here is that I’ve yet to find another location making these wines that I’m enjoying more than what’s coming out of the S Rhone.
I’m always open to suggestions, because I would love to be drinking better, for less money.
I love Southern Rhone wines and believe there are a great many others who do as well. There is however, a vocal group who have different tastes and seem to take great pleasure in telling those of us who do like Southern Rhone wines how wrong we are. As a result there does appear to be a predisposition to certain varietals and styles of wine in the discussions here, to the exclusion of Southern Rhone. That said there is still a great amount of information on a broad variety of subjects. It is what it is.
Love Southern Rhone. Really where my collection and enthusiasm began. While prices have increased, I think you can find great value. I have tried tried and will continue to try Californian counterparts, but in general, I find better value in Rhone (and less oak). Looking at some purchases for CdP, $60-75 for Beaucastel depending on vintage, $40-60 for Pegau depending on vintage, $35-70 for Janasse depending on which one ($16 for CdR!) to name a few. Little South but what about Bandol? Tempier for $30-45 depending on the wine? In the $30-70 range, you can get some amazing wine that is extremely versatile with food that will only get more interesting with time. I know this is apples and oranges and there are always exceptions, but I generally feel like I pay nearly 2x for a similar caliber Bordeaux and more for Burgundy. You have to pick producers and some certainly got out of balance, particularly in hot years but it is amazing how many times I have turned fringe wine drinkers on to CdP and they love it. I am relatively new here and only been seriously drinking wine for 5-10 years so I don’t have the experience with SR wines of the 80s and 90s that others on the board have but I can’t wait to see how the wines that I do have evolve. Happy to continue chatting on subjects you want to discuss.
Yeah Eric - hope you’re well! I think you’re right - it’s the blend that just isn’t done that way in too many other regions. Some Australians get it well, but it’s distinctly theirs, not like the Rhone. And in Spain, they do the Garnacha but mostly leave out the Syrah. I think those are brilliant together. CA is working on it, WA too actually.
I have a Mexican Nebbiolo/Tempranillo blend for next time I see you!
I agree 100% regarding the Charvin CdR ( not easy to find) and Lirac. There’s a lot of great CdR out there and some stuff that really can compete with. CdP.
I too enjoy wines from the Rhone and Rhone Rangers. If you can find them try La Pialade ($50 +/-), Chateau des Tours ($35 +/-) and Domaine des Tours (25 +/-) all Rayas Cote du Rhones that drink as good or IMHO better than many higher priced CDP’s. While I’m on my soap box I think Washington has done a better job in recent years with Syrah and Granache than California. I’m painting with a broad brush, there are some very good CA producers whose wines I enjoy.
I too love the Southern Rhone, especially CdP which when done well may be my favorite genre (traditional rather than so-called modern style).
That said, I am wondering if CdP is heading for some type of price correction if not a significant crash. A few reasons:
There has been an increasing number of CdP cuvees made in the so-called modern style (higher extraction, riper fruit which seem to come at the expense of aromatic complexity). Oak use is also at play here, and the paremeters are familiar.
There seems to be a move by many consumers, especially aficionados, away from higher extraction and towards wines of greater elegance, interest/complexity, “balance”,etc.
Prices that have increased far beyond inflation.
Proliferation of special/multipe cuvees. This exacerbates all of the above. There aren’t that many producers putting their best into a single red cuvee (those that are I laud and drink).
On #2, I avoid the big extracted CdPs because if my goal is a burly GSM -style I have many options elsewhere at lower cost.
Does anyone think CdP could be the next Aussie shiraz?
Pacem
I understand the barb but it’s not all that elucidative. Returning to the subject, I’ve observed the increasing retail availability and time on the market for high-end CdPs, feedback from friends and acquaintances who now avoiding CdP primarily over value, and the comments in multiple WB threads and elsewhere expressing concerns about CdP style trends. Just wondering if others are sensing a broader turning away that could have economic implications.
Seems like CdP wouldn’t be exempt from economics of supply and demand. There are lots of examples. I am sure you are already know CA and WA producers (some that I have heard from personally and others that are, justifiably, WB heroes) over the last 10 years cut way back on syrah in favor of other varieties that aren’t such a “tough sell” (that’s not a slam of CA/WA syrah; they dominate my cellar). Since they don’t have the option to start making cabernet in CdP it seems like they would have fewer options in response to supply/demand. The Aussie shiraz comparison was one of the most extreme examples I could think of; and no I don’t expect CdP to fall in reputation (I think unfairly) as far as Aussie shiraz. But I wound’t mind seeing prices stop increasing if not decrease for the CdPs I like.
Peace.
CDP, and the modern critics and consultants like Cambie, seriously jumped the shark in the 2007 vintage, but the tide was turning before that. Today’s it’s just en masse.
As much as I blame Cambie, the problem has been letting the Grenache hang on the vines too long. Barroche did it in 05 and their punishment was 100 point scores, sold out product and steep price increases. Others were already doing this or quickly joined in.
By the time 07 came along the season let them take this practice to dizzying heights. A lot of wines from 05 onward have become high test roasted messes. At least the ones in my cellar. The vintages I enjoy drinking now are 08 and 11.
There were a few threads about the 98s being disappointments lately, but I think that’s crazy. Only a few wines were meant for the long haul like Donjon, Telegraphe, Clos Des Papes, Pegau, Vielle Julliene or Clos de Caillou.
I’m struggling to think that Syrah is the problem, just a few hours drive north, they seem to be doing OK.
I’m no Cambie fan, God knows, but both of the above two posts are painting with much too broad a brush. Global warming is with us, and vintages like 03 and 07 will alas be more frequent, but there are more than enough CdP domaines harvesting as best they can to avoid overripeness and vinifying in entirely traditional ways. If you buy from them in cool vintages like 04, 08, 11, 13 and 14, you will be more likely to be happier. I would also suggest trying great years that are not marked by the sun like 10 and 16. Now if you don’t like CdP, you don’t like CdP, and that’s fine. But don’t confuse that with not liking modern winemaking.
Jonathan. I must like Southern Rhone wines, I have 561 notes from the region on CT. I was just expressing my view on some of the wines in my cellar and the reasons I think few wine geeks are buying the wines.
I do believe there are a lot of regions where global warming has been dealt with better then CdP.
David, I was thinking more of Alfert, Jayson Cohen, Jay Miller, Keith Levenberg and Neal Mollen as declared Southern Rhone haters. I did gather from your thread that you did like them in cooler vintages.
I agree with this. Between traditional producers and the less heralded vintages, there are still some nice southern Rhone wines being made that aren’t in the super ripe, high alcohol, fruit bomb style.
I’ve been buying CdP Blanc more than the reds in the Southern Rhone…for me, the wines are just not what I’ve been looking for in the past. The last vintage of Beaucastel that I’ve been aging is 2001. I’ve enjoyed a few of these in their youth, but had little or no interest in aging them as they were good enough within a year of purchase that I was happy not to bother aging them. In general this is a region that has not grown in popularity with others…but it doesn’t mean that the wines aren’t special. It’s just that when there’s a need for space in the cellar to age some of the long-aging wines like Nebbiolo, there’s just no room for wines that I’m generally happy to buy and drink within a year or two of release like these. Again, the whites are the exception for me…I do like hanging onto them longer.
Hate is a strong word. Remember I promised to have an open mind when you are next in town. And I love Rayas and Fonsalette. (Which is sort of like saying: “We have both kinds. Country and Western.”) And Brezeme from Serine - not exactly South but not exactly North either. It just doesn’t make sense for me to buy CdR and CNdP that is predominantly Grenache that I am likely not to like rather than spend my $$ elsewhere.