Rob, look on Zind-Humbrecht front labels (starting sometime in the 2000s, I think), usually under the alcohol level; Indice 1-5, suggesting, I believe, perceived level of sweetness, not necessarily RS, or Brix at harvest.
I haven ‘t noticed any other producers from Alsace noting their wines’ sweetness levels, but I haven’t really been looking, eithere.
Indeed, I was tired. The explicit version reads thus: “No [Enzo’s post wasn’t wierd]. Those [his ironic statements] are all the “normal” [play on wierd] tired arguments. [Your and others’ posts ] Reminds [sic] me of Bob (or is it Gus McCrae ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
) trashing CF [hommage/barb to Parker and reference to HAG thread]. So you [most of the posters here]don’t like the style…why waste your time slowing down for the cheap shots? I’m sure Loren is gratified to have started this thread.”
So there you have the whole silly thing…like this thread, unfortunately ![[pillow-fight.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/3/365d4ae6de5fe0cd9e7345760c12ceae1ed5e206.gif "[pillow-fight.gif]")
Agreed. Another good source of information is on the importer’s own web site. There are profiles and technical data for each wine in the current portfolio along with Oliver’s comments. Here (http://www.thesortingtable.com/brand.php?brandId=1&pageId=6&productId=623&sessionID=QhSnc8QPQhY8cfyD) for instance, is the information of one of the wines Loren found. I find these pages very useful, particularly if you know the vineyard sites and the bottlings.
I am also surprised that no one has commented specifically as to why Loren might have found these wines on closeout (besides the fact that some people hate them). The obvious point IMO to be made is that these are 07s, an Alsace vintage with grey rot issues, especially for the PGs and Gewurzs. Think mushrooms. I personally stuck to the Rieslings in 07 .
So sad…back in the good/ole days, by crackey, the assumption was that all Alsatian wines were dry…as in 0.0% RS. Even the VendageTardive ones. And SQN were virtually non-existent.
Now producers must but RS levels on the label so consumers won’t get blindsided.
Actually, I’m not anti-ZH. I find their wines are pretty exceptional…to taste. They leave you in awe w/ their intensity, their extraction, their aromatics. And, despite their often low acidity levels,
they age, usually, into pretty interesting wines. They are fully deserving of the scores Parker and others give them. They are monumental wines, worth being put upon a pedestal and worshiping, like
you do a Harlan/ScreamingEagle/SQN/Alban.
My problem with the ZH wines comes to aligning them with food. Somebody above suggested they go well with Indian food. Thai food as well. As I would agree. But when I sit down to
have a plate of weenies & kraut or a tarte flambe or many of the traditional Alsatian dishes, a ZH is the last thing to come to mind. Sure, if you pick & choose among all the ZH’s, you can probably
find one that will fill the bill. And it’ll be expensive. About 10 yrs ago, by crackey, I made a wonderful (least I thought so) Chacroute and opened a ZH GC GWT with it. After about the first glass, I
just couldn’t take another glass. I wanted something w/ some zing/zip/acidity/lightness/minerality to cut thru all the fat. The ZH was an amazing wine w/ great intensity and powerful aromatics.
It just didn’t work w/ the weeners.
Tom
Unfortunately your “not sure why…” inclusion opened the door. Sorry to drift, but (IMO) way too many threads lately get jumped on by naysayers.
I appreciate the notice Loren, and ordered a couple. I agree with Bob H., about these wines and the match with Indian food (and thai food) which I eat a lot of. I do agree with Tom that they aren’t the greatest match for what one would consider the regional cuisine.
These are nice prices on Z-H.
Lauren, interesting comment on the 07 vintage. I know it was a rollercoaster early season, but I thought the late season in Alsace progressed very well with really good (& dry) weather into a late picking season. Supposedly there are a lot of very good VT & SGN wines. I hadn’t heard that gewurzs proved problematic.
I have had a 1996 Brand and Hauserer in the past 6 months that were both excellent. That being said, they were my last bottles of ZH.
I agree, except that my problem (and it sounds like yours too) is not as limited as “aligning them with food”, but more fundamentally with actually being forced to drink the wine in any quantity. As you said, they can be impressive to taste. But after that, I find them downright unpleasant…heavy, rich, candied and marmaladish (and, like marmalade, with a bitter finish).
So for me, the heart of the problem isn’t that it doesn’t pair synergistically with many foods (although that is also true)…the problem is that I don’t enjoy drinking past the first sip or two. I don’t think it’s the sweetness. Just last night I had a FANTASTIC Zilliken GK (auction) Auslese (probably much sweeter than most ZHs) with a honey-soy marinated grilled pork chop and grits), and it worked great. It’s the specific flavor profile–bitter orange peel (vs. actual fruit); dried apricots and caramelized peaches (vs. more delicate apple or pear fruit); and an extraneous dollop of honey to top it all off.
Exactly.
(IMO) way too many threads lately get jumped on by naysayers.
Hmmm…IMO, this is only a problem if one comes to an internet forum expecting universal agreement regarding the wines one loves.
IMO, a variety of opinions and experiences improves the discussion.
I’m sorry to drift on Loren’s thread, as I do appreciate his post.
Universal agreemnet is not what anyone wants, and is at the complete other end of a large spectrum from consistent naysaying. Note that I’m not the only one commenting on the tone in this very short thread.
Just as every thread does not have to be about universal love, it isn’t exactly productive for everyone to comment on any thread about wines they do not like. Before long we’re into the same general philosophical argument between the group that dislikes what they see as over-ripe wine and those that like a wine. But what is worse than making the point about why ONE might not like a wine, is the attempt to belittle or prove wrong people who do like a wine. Some people seem to think they are a higher authority, with an enlightened knowledge that supports their likes. Whereas others surely must be dilettantes or trophy chasers. That philosophy might hold true at the office watercooler, but everyone here is at the very top of the curve as far as wine experience and knowledge. If you cannot see that here then we just disagree.
Loren posted on the availability of a wine that ne obviously likes and that many might be interested in finding. Kudos to him. It wasn’t a thread aimed at a general philosophical question. There’s plenty of those out there for people to vigorously debate whether a wine stinks. Then again I’ll admit to a different sense of decorum and politeness than others.
The level of intensity on the thread makes me wonder if the wines are this controversial or people are just heavily resentful of the level of praise heaped upon the wines by the Wine Advocate? I’m not judging either way.
That said, if you ever have a chance to meet Olivier and talk about wine and his philosophy, even if you do not prefer his style of winemaking, I would be surprised if people didn’t have a somewhat greater appreciation for what he is trying to do.
Loren,
No such thing as a deal on Z-H wines up here in Ontario so I am green with envy.
Keith,
I usually read your comments and they compare favourably with my own … ahem … biases but, here we part ways. Here’s my comment … so it and $1.30 will get you coffee unless you like that shite Starbucks serves!!
Sorry for you luck on the Z-H but, I would have to question the provenance of your distribution. I am long time fan of the wines, though I do prefer the Trimbach style more often than not … and love Mann and Boxler and a bunch of others that few seem to ever talk about. We just recently had 94 Clos Jebsal that was simply ethereal. It required about two hours of air to come into its own but, when it got rocking it was the experience that makes wine magical for me. I bring this wine up as it is one I have had a number of times since its release and I did not become a buyer as a result of Parker following but, rather became a fan after after visiting the winery. (BTW nicer people you cannot find.) The wine, upon release, was for me too sweet but, nicely balanced otherwise. The most recent bottle in January or February the wine gave a perception of much less sweetness and seemed racier and more tense … with really intense flavours. I can remember one other occasion when this particular wine absolutely rocked my world and may have been the best white wine I have ever had. That said, I would really struggle to see this wine, as a 98 pointer upon release but, then I rate wines on how they drink at the time and don’t apply numbers. The Clos Jebsal was drunk along side an 96 A. Mann PG Furstentum, a bottling I very much like as well though I too think Mann goes to another level in Schlossberg. For my palate the Clos Jebsal won hands down. The Furstentum was a very good wine and certainly contained some amount of tension and was balanced but, the Clos Jebsal was at another level in terms of its verve and harmony.
As for the food pairing … I don’t think the off dry versions from Alsace pair particularly well with anything but, I can’t find any food I think pairs with a lot of wine styles with peceived sweetness, for example the jammy Zins and the cola styled Cali Pinots don’t pair well with anything for me though I hear others rave about a particular pairing. In the case of the Alsatians, I love them all on their own.
I should point out that all the wines I have referred to were purchased upon release and rested in my own cellar until consumption.
Anyone in the business of trying to “prove” anything in an internet discussion forum is on a fool’s errand whatever the side of the debate they are taking.
Some people seem to think they are a higher authority
People can think whatever they want.
Everything I read goes through my own personal filter.
I don’t want anyone pre-filtering their opinion for me.
Mine were purchased on release and stored in my own cellar too. Further, I sampled them on release and they were not damaged.
Agree with Eric on meeting Olivier - I’ve had the pleasure twice, and you do have to appreciate his passion and knowledge.
Yes, and next to TACITURN in the dictionary is a picture of Olivier. Not a many of many words, but I quite liked him. (He was a speaker at the MW Symposium last June where I also had the privilege of speaking, so I kept running into him at the evening events and had a chance to chat a number of times.)
Well , belive and buy what you want. I have first hand experience of people buying ZH on points and hating them. I’ve visited them twice, and I feel the same about the wines I like and mostly they are not for me, and not for most people I know who are serious about Alsatian wine. Your experience may be different.
I’ve been serious about Alsace wine for over 20 years and I appreciate ZH wine. They can have extreme amounts of richness and concentration. If you only appreciate Trimbachs wine (which I love) you’ll not like them. Their style does go best with VT and their SGN’s. Their drier wines I use as and apperitif or with curries. I appreciate variety in my wines.
Oh and if you don’t like ZH because Parker likes them, he also rates Trimbach pretty high as well.
I agree. The Ch. Pavie of Alsace. Except it is really more accurate to say Ch. Pavie is the Zind-Humbrecht of Bordeaux. Both wineries have their fans, and their detractors. Personally, I’m a Trimbach guy.
BTW, I don’t recall any personal attacks or belittling comments in this thread. I really don’t understand why some peeps think posts in this thread are off base… ![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
Lew, my comment is kind of a response to a what seems like a trend to me, as much as specifics here. It seems that a couple of people commented on the nature of posts. I recall you making a comment on the SF Chron. thread so think you at least notice the perception of “elitism”. To me (and obviously not everyone) it’s negative to come on to a thread where someone is essentially giving others a heads up on a wine they like and found for a deal, and trash it. Moreso, once there’s clearly just a difference in preferences, to imply that people who are serious about Alsatian wine don’t like it. It’s just more of the “some opinions are better than others” insinuation. Anyhow, I’m leaving it at that, it’s just my reaction.
Back to the wine, I think it is clear that there is a difference in style between Z-H and say Trimbach, Boxler, or Kreydenweiss, though perhaps moreso with riesling than gewurz. Regardless, they needn’t be exclusive. I actually drink more Trimbach (based on price and wife ITB) but find occasion to drink the Z-H as well.
I’d also echo Eric and Bob’s comment that if one meets Olivier he clearly has a vision behind the wines, including being a big proponent of biodynamic wines. His wife (who’s British?) is also very compelling.
Did you stop reading newspapers, listening to radio or watching TV?
[quote=“johngonzales”
BTW, I don’t recall any personal attacks or belittling comments in this thread. I really don’t understand why some peeps think posts in this thread are off base… [/quote]
Lew, my comment is kind of a response to a what seems like a trend to me, as much as specifics here. It seems that a couple of people commented on the nature of posts. I recall you making a comment on the SF Chron. thread so think you at least notice the perception of “elitism”. To me (and obviously not everyone) it’s negative to come on to a thread where someone is essentially giving others a heads up on a wine they like and found for a deal, and trash it. Moreso, once there’s clearly just a difference in preferences, to imply that people who are serious about Alsatian wine don’t like it. It’s just more of the “some opinions are better than others” insinuation. Anyhow, I’m leaving it at that, it’s just my reaction.
[/quote]
I think Loren’s rhetorical question in the posting starting this thread made this thread more than about " a heads up on a wine…and found for a deal"…and the thread much more interesting , and populated, as a result.
__
Not sure why ZH wines so often get heavily discounted, but I am a buyer