Savennieres

WINE TALK
1

I know very little about producers / vintages here… seeking input. What are good vintages that are still in the market?

How is the Baumard Savennieres?

What else should I look for (keeping it reasonable, say, under $40-$50)?

Are there people fucking the wine up w/ oak? Does anyone ever go over the top?

2

am interested in knowing more about this, too. have never had the chance to try Savennieres, but my friend’s favorite wine is Nicolas Joly’s Coulee de Serrant. It goes for about $64 and is tough to find.

3

I’ve got a couple bottles of 2007 Château d’Epiré Savennières Cuvée Spéciale but apparently Savennieres needs quite a bit of cellar time…so I’m afraid to try

4

I recently had a 91 (producer escapes me) that piqued my interest. I’ve had a couple Joly’s and a couple others… all too young!

5

Love Savennieres, but value is hard to find.
These are the better producers for the zone.

Closel
Baumard
N. Joly
Soucherie

Pithon makes a little as well, and they are good, but not what they are known for.

Also check out Chinon Blanc. Even harder to find, but can be a great dry alternative.

6
  • Pierre Bise
7

Calling Brad Kane!!!

Brad really knows his Loires, from what I remember. [berserker.gif]

8

Joly is most revered, but I’ve had mixed luck (and it’s most expensive). I like Closel’s Papillon. I really like Baumard’s Trie Speciale, but not made every vintage (and not really typical).

There’s been some concern re early deaths of some '96 & 97 Savennieres, but the base Baumard '96 is showing young (if simple) tonight

9

Savennieres can be terrific wine. Rich and exotic while minerally and quite ageworthy, as so much of the better Loire chenin blanc is. Not many producers are using new oak on the wines, that I know of or have tasted anyway.

I can’t think of an outright bad vintage in the 12 or so years I’ve been a fan. Certainly 1996 has a great reputation. 1997 was pretty warm, sort of the 2003 of vintages before that scorching year. 1998 and 1999 were tough but I remember some good wines. 2000 and 2001 as well. 2002 was a classic vintage. 2003 very hot. 2004 a bit under the radar. 2005 is absolutely outstanding, with ripe wines and great structure. If you must focus somewhere, focus here. 2006 and 2007, I haven’t tried much but they seem ok.

Producers that I like in the price range:

Baumard – technically masterful wines. Some people say they lack soul. I don’t agree at all. Hard to find bad wine here.

Closel – Sometimes a little too exotic and wild for me, but my good experiences here have been great.

d’Epire – Not top flight but underrated all the same. The '96 Cuvee Speciale started me off with this appellation. Perhaps I just have a soft spot for the producer, but what’s wrong with that.

Vincent

10

I’ve recently tasted the 02 and 04 Baumard. These are very dry chenin blancs. If you are more used to Vouvray demi-secs or similar, these can be a shock. Dry pineapple and pear, with a quinine mineral note.

Last night I had a Baumard cremant nv Carte Turquoise. As with the still wines, this was a veery dry sparkler. For the sparkler I’d say it reminded me of a no-dose champagne in terms of how dry it was. I thought it was a striking wine - but I don’t have a lot of experience with low dosaged bubblies and I think I was reacting to that facet of the wine more than anything else.

The Baumards are all very reasonably priced.

11

A somm at Guy Savoy turned me onto Closel’s Papillon. Merci !

12

Many of the sparkling wines of the Loire are low dosage or zero dosage. Jacky Blot makes an insane one called Triple Zero. You wanna try a dry one, LOOK OUT!

13

Baumard and Papillon are my favorite producers. Joly is a crap shoot (one I participate in). The results can be all over the place, but when its good…

14

I’m going to keep tasting through the sparkling Loire chenins - at least the few that are available locally. The dryness is appealing to me - so different from what I’m used to with sparklers - and a lot cheaper than comparable champagnes for my tastes.

As we were drinking the cremant, my wife and I couldn’t decide what types of foods would best pair with such a dry sparkler.

15

Mine too. Usually easy to find and reasonably priced too.

16

I will echo some of the other comments previously posted regarding Baumard, who to me is a “go-to”, year-in, year-out type producer in Savennieres. Maybe never the apex, but always consistently good, sometimes great and generallly fairly priced. That said, as someone already mentioned, his base bottling is a bone-dry style of wine, which I enjoy but which can put some people off - think of a Pepiere Muscadet with more structure and less sweetness. I’d also say that his wines may be some of the most age-worthy whites produced anywhere, but it seems like they seldom get the chance to really show this, as most folks tend to drink them in their youth.

17

What happens to these dry Chenins with years in the cellar?
I can sort of project how the sweeter ones age. And I’ve got a small stash of Baumard and Huet (secs) put away - but I can’t imagine how age changes them.

18

I have had a bunch of older Foreau, and they pick up some great notes of ginger and petrol, and can some times even pick up red wine character.

19

All the better producers have been pretty well covered. My favorites tend to be Baumard, Closel & Soucherie, though Closel has changed their style over the last ten years, going for a riper and slightly more oxidative style that I don’t like as much as their older, leaner style. I don’t think they’ll age as well. In fact, their '02 Clos Papillon, something I would’ve thought would age for decades given the vintage, is, imo, already drinking at peak. It can age further, but I don’t think it’ll make very old bones in a profile that I’d still like.

Joly, as many know, tends to be pretty controversial. He certainly has the best terroir in Savennieres, but, imo, he cares more about the process and politics of biodynamism than he does about making good wine. I’ve been able to pick his wine out double blind because I really don’t like the oxidative style he’s pursued since around '94. Prior to the stylistic change, I feel he made some good wines, but generally underperformed in such vintages as '85, '89 and '90.

I find Savennieres age quite differently than Vouvray. They are generally much more mineral dominated and not in a chalky way the Vouvray is, and drier. Also,they tend to be nuttier and more oxidative in normal conditions than their Vouvray brethren. As a result, I tend to prefer Vouvray.

That said, some of my all time favorite Savennieres have been the '79 & '89 Baumard- Clos Papillon, '89 and '96 Closel “Clos Papillon Cuvee Special,” and on release, the '96 Baumard Clos papillon, though that wine has really seen to have fallen off the cliff in recent years, becoming a shadow of itself and an oxidative mess.

Cheers,

Brad

20

The 90 and 95 Baumard Trie Special were great wines with 7-10 years on them. Recent examples are cheap for the quality. But, the 97 Trie seems premoxed or rehaps damaged since I did not buy these upon release. The 2002 Baumard Clos Papillon is a very nice wine, I drank most of them but still have a couple laying around. Baumard QDC are special in my opinion and represent great value and they can improve for decades unlike the Savennieres, in my opinion.