Santa Cruz Mountain Chardonnay is the New World equivalent of Chablis

[Gary_York]

I think the answer is, yes. But only to a point. And only if you select certain producers. It is not like all Chablis or SCMN Chards are good.

[Mark_Golodetz]

SCM, is for me generally, my favorite California wine area, but not just for Chardonnay but also Cabernet. I suppose I should add Pinot, but whereas the other two compete with the best of Europe, the Pinots lag. When I was sort of blind tasted on Rhys wines, I always gravitated towards the SCM, but they still fell short. (Actually I knew what the wines were, but did not know which ones were SCM).

[Dav1d_Sawyer]

Willamette Valley is much closer stylistically.

[Scott_E1]

I know nothing about Chablis. Sorry for the thread drift, but can someone recommend a kick-a$$ Chablis at a Mount Eden Estate price (approx. $60? or less?). Cheers!

[M_Dildine]

Maybe the right thing to say is that SCM Chardonnay is a good place to look if you dig Chablis and are open to trying new world whites. And that Chablis is a good place to look if you dig SCM Chardonnay and are open to trying French whites.

[TomHill]

Maybe the right thing to say is that SCM Chardonnay is a good place to look if you dig Chablis and are open to trying new world whites. And that Chablis is a good place to look if you dig SCM Chardonnay and are open to trying French whites.

I think Chris pretty much nailed it here w/ this comment. If you’re a Chablis lover & want to venture into Calif Chard waters,
then the SCM is the best place to start. So I can see some motivation for the original question/poll.
I’m not a huge fan of the MonteBello Chards as I think they are sometimes on the too-ripe side and have a bit too much oak.
When I first started drinking Ridge Whites (Chard/Sylvaner/Riesling) back in the early '70’s, I did not care for them at all. Rather on the
austere side, and much more akin to Chablis than they are now.
In '74 (by crackey, delivered w/ a strong slap to the thigh…a Kansas exclamation), I took a group of nuclear types for a visit up on MB Ridge
w/ Dave Bennion. We tasted thru the newely-released '73 Zins and a '71 MB Cab and were duly impressed. Overcast & colder than hell up there on the knoll above the
wnry. As we were preparing to leave, I commented to Dave that I really loved his Zins, but that I thought his whites were lacking. Dave took that as
as a personal challenge and went down into the cellar & started pulling out whites (Chard mostly, Riesling/, & Sylvaner), mostly from the mid-'60’s, capped by a hlf btl of the '68
TBA Riesling. Made a believer outta me. Those old Chards had developed into beautiful old WhiteBurg like Chards and developed a richness & texture that belied
their original austere/chalky character. Maybe not Chables, but amazing stuff.
Tom

[Mark_Golodetz]

I did two Ridge dinners, and we had the 1973 in the first and 1974 Chardonnay in the second. Both were utterly profound wines, and amazing for forty years of age, with no sign of cracking up. My slight preference was for the 1973, but as we did not taste them together, so that is just based on points I gave them 97 and 96.

[Gabe_Berk]

SC Mountain Chard is a leaner style than say Russian River or Napa, but they are still a poster child of new world fruitier versions of Chardonnay in comparison to mineral driven, higher acid Chablis. Perhaps Oregon/Washington would be closer stylistically than SC Mountains.

[Bryan_Carr]

I thought something similar when I first started drinking Santa Cruz chards, I was really impressed with them! So I put some up blind vs Oregon and Chablis and thought it was going to prove something. It did prove something alright, but not what I assumed it would! If by “equivalent” meaning it’s the lightest of the complex Chardonnay growing regions in CA, then yes, sure, if you’re saying that they actually taste like Chablis, well… I’ll respectfully say that it’s not really my experience.

[K_John_Joseph]

I DID NOT SAY that these wines are similar. They are not remotely similar. … they are equivalent

Similar: resembling without being identical
Equivalent: equal in value, amount, function, meaning, etc.
synonyms: equal, identical; similar, parallel, analogous, comparable, corresponding, correspondent, interchangeable; like

I’ll admit I was very confused by the question. That said, I do very much like SCM chards.

[Dan_Kravitz]

Maybe the right thing to say is that SCM Chardonnay is a good place to look if you dig Chablis and are open to trying new world whites. And that Chablis is a good place to look if you dig SCM Chardonnay and are open to trying French whites.

I couldn’t have put it better. In fact, I didn’t put it anywhere near as well.

Thanks to K John Joseph for further muddying the waters I already muddied with the addition of some dictionary definitions.

My poll has accomplished what I wanted, which was to start a discussion, and I am grateful to all who joined in, even the SnarkMasters. I’ve been one myself.

For all that I’ve tried ~30 Oregon Chardonnays over the years, I’ve never really paid big attention to them. Based on all of the comments here, I’ll rectify that starting sooner rather than later. I’m here to get eddicated, and it happens.

I disagree with some of the comments on the SCM Chardonnays. Mount Eden is my touchstone Chardonnay… from anywhere on this planet. Rhys is another favorite and I really like both Fogarty and Alfaro. I disagree with the negative comments about Ridge Chardonnays! I think they can be outstanding. I agree with one comment about the need for age. Mount Eden can be completely outstanding from 2 - 40 years of age. Ridge generally needs at least 7 - 10 years to knit and show well.

Onward through the fog, er, mud.

Dan Kravitz

[R_Frankel]

Good discussion, always interesting to compare these things. Flawed poll though.

Btw I drink and enjoy both Chablis and SCM chards. For a rec on a < $60 Chablis, I really have been enjoying the Moreau-Naudet 2016s. Sharp and reliable young, ask me in a few years about aging .

[Chris_Seiber]

SC Mountain Chard is a leaner style than say Russian River or Napa, but they are still a poster child of new world fruitier versions of Chardonnay in comparison to mineral driven, higher acid Chablis. Perhaps Oregon/Washington would be closer stylistically than SC Mountains.

I don’t know if you mean the bolded part as describing Chablis generally, or if you’re saying that SCM chardonnay doesn’t compare much to that subsection of Chablis which is more minerally and higher acid.

Anyway, my impression is that a growing portion of Chablis and White Burgundy is getting riper, more tropical, with more medium acids, and basically ready to drink young. Though I think many of us think of White Burgundy as being what it was like decades ago when it was different. when young Chablis had searing acids and lean, bony fruit.

I do think I could tell Chablis and Cote de Beaune whites from the new wave SCM chardonnays blind the majority of the time, but I don’t think it would be as easy is many of us think.

[Lee_Short]

SC Mountain Chard is a leaner style than say Russian River or Napa, but they are still a poster child of new world fruitier versions of Chardonnay in comparison to mineral driven, higher acid Chablis. Perhaps Oregon/Washington would be closer stylistically than SC Mountains.

So I completely agree that Oregon chard is both more mineral and acidic than what I’ve tried of SCM Chardonnay, and better value. I don’t think there were ever any better value top-notch chardonnays than the single vineyard wines that Russ Raney used to put out at Evesham Wood.

That said – I wouldn’t have thought of Washington state chards as being minerally and acidic, based on limited experience. What producers should I try to change my mind?

[Wes_Barton]

SC Mountain Chard is a leaner style than say Russian River or Napa, but they are still a poster child of new world fruitier versions of Chardonnay in comparison to mineral driven, higher acid Chablis. Perhaps Oregon/Washington would be closer stylistically than SC Mountains.

I don’t know if you mean the bolded part as describing Chablis generally, or if you’re saying that SCM chardonnay doesn’t compare much to that subsection of Chablis which is more minerally and higher acid.

Anyway, my impression is that a growing portion of Chablis and White Burgundy is getting riper, more tropical, with more medium acids, and basically ready to drink young. Though I think many of us think of White Burgundy as being what it was like decades ago when it was different. when young Chablis had searing acids and lean, bony fruit.

I do think I could tell Chablis and Cote de Beaune whites from the new wave SCM chardonnays blind the majority of the time, but I don’t think it would be as easy is many of us think.

Yes, style is largely a winemaking choice. So, I’ll add that SCM Chards can easily be made lean, minerally, flinty.

On that style-as-a-choice note, we recently got to try a huge contrast side-by-side. Highlawn and Cellars 33 Picpoul. Same vineyard, picked the same day, made in the same facility (August West). The Highlawn was lean, wonderful lifting savory aromatics, flinty. The Cellars 33 was rich and round stone fruit, the nose more moderate with the savory stuff and integrated with the fruit. Both excellent, but so different I’d pair them with different foods and think to drink them under different circumstances.

[Pat_Martin]

I’ve had the 2010 Ridge Estate Chardonnay and the Monte Bello Chardonnay quite recently. Both were terrific and amongst the best CA Chardonnay I get to drink. Overall, I preferred the Estate as it was fresher and more mineral driven than the Monte Bello, which was richer and a touch oxidative at this point.

The Estate reminded me more of a Chassagne Montrachet than a Chablis, being richer and a touch oaker. High praise in my book.

[Gary_York]

I know nothing about Chablis. Sorry for the thread drift, but can someone recommend a kick-a$$ Chablis at a Mount Eden Estate price (approx. $60? or less?). Cheers!

Not sure where you are or if these are available in your area, but these might be a good place to start.

Domaine Jean-Paul & Benoît Droin à Chablis

[Sean_S]

I live in the SCM and have tasted almost all the wares and to me there are only a few that deserve mention in the same breath as Chablis. 9 out of 10 are over-extracted fruity, buttery beasts. Very little restraint shown in general. Wes and I were at the SCM Grand tasting on Sunday and tasted many producers and not much to get excited about on the Chardonnay front.

Rhys, Mt Eden, and the Lester Family vineyards made by John Benedetti, and Alfaro all work for me but I’m struggling to think of another I like including Ridge. Willamette Valley, on the other hand, is a whole different matter and there are many great chardonnay producers producing some pretty epic Chardonnay for very reasonable dollars.

Sean

The Ridge Chards take time to come around - maybe 10-15 years. Young, they taste pretty typical CA Chard. At their peak, they kick ass. I brought a '96 to an eBob OL a decade ago that was a sort of 'bring your best mature CA Chard". Hands-down favorite over a lot of big names, including Rhys.

Fogarty is impressive these days but could use 5 years to show their best. Neely is among the best. John Benedetti put himself on the map with his own Chards (Sante Arcangeli). Respectable outsiders like Lioco, Ceritas, Martin Ray, Kutch, Betwixt, Trail Marker, Arnot-Roberts, Leo Steen, Ghostwriter make good/reportedly good ones.

Haven’t had Chaine d’Or from the current winemaker, but that’s a good vineyard. There are probably 100 producers now, mostly small. Most are amateurish mom-n-pop operations. Back when I was tasting them extensively, there weren’t that many duds. Most were respectable, if rudimentary. They had the terroir and ripeness right, and weren’t screwed up by dumb trend-following decisions. They just weren’t near what they could be. (Though some would occasionally have the stars line up.)

There’s always something new going on - it’s impossible to keep up. Looking at CT, hardly any of the producers are even listed. I have a Madson on deck - if that’s anything like the reds I tried, I’ll be happy. I’m sure you’ll like Rob’s Chards.

Hi Wes,

Never had a Ridge aged more than 10 years but look forward to it. The Fogarty SVD on Sunday was tasty. The Cuvee was not. We’ll have to disagree on Neely. It’s just too ripe and lacks enough acidity for me. I could see for a Neely fan where a lot of the local producers would seem OK but I just can’t get over the lack of acidity. Never get any flinty reduction from these producers that I love so much on Chablis, White Burgs and my favorite Oregon producers. I did forget to mention Kutch and Ceritas which I both buy and agree with those comments. The betwixt I’ve had was good but still lacked that acidity. I can’t say most of the local producers (not Ceritas, Kutch and some of the well-regarded outsiders) really seem stylistically aligned to Chablis. IMO Oregon is much more so. Loving the 2017 Goodfellow I’m drinking right now…

Ian Brand gets it right in my book and its great QPR for $20 but that’s Monterrey and not SCM.

Sean

[Sean_S]

SC Mountain Chard is a leaner style than say Russian River or Napa, but they are still a poster child of new world fruitier versions of Chardonnay in comparison to mineral driven, higher acid Chablis. Perhaps Oregon/Washington would be closer stylistically than SC Mountains.

I don’t know if you mean the bolded part as describing Chablis generally, or if you’re saying that SCM chardonnay doesn’t compare much to that subsection of Chablis which is more minerally and higher acid.

Anyway, my impression is that a growing portion of Chablis and White Burgundy is getting riper, more tropical, with more medium acids, and basically ready to drink young. Though I think many of us think of White Burgundy as being what it was like decades ago when it was different. when young Chablis had searing acids and lean, bony fruit.

I do think I could tell Chablis and Cote de Beaune whites from the new wave SCM chardonnays blind the majority of the time, but I don’t think it would be as easy is many of us think.

Yes, style is largely a winemaking choice. So, I’ll add that SCM Chards can easily be made lean, minerally, flinty.

On that style-as-a-choice note, we recently got to try a huge contrast side-by-side. Highlawn and Cellars 33 Picpoul. Same vineyard, picked the same day, made in the same facility (August West). The Highlawn was lean, wonderful lifting savory aromatics, flinty. The Cellars 33 was rich and round stone fruit, the nose more moderate with the savory stuff and integrated with the fruit. Both excellent, but so different I’d pair them with different foods and think to drink them under different circumstances.

Agree with comments on the Picpoul. I did buy both of those but got more of the Highlawn, since it fits my palate more. I can’t say I really can think of anyone other than Ceritas making a flinty SCM chard. Not even Rhys and Mt Eden capture that magic I get on a PYCM, Walter Scott or Goodfellow.

Sean

[Sean_Devaney]

Chris nailed it with his initial comment. I was at the Silicon Valley Wine Auction last Sunday and my favorite Chards were Mount Eden (both) and Neely’s (sorry Sean_S.) Didn’t get to the Fogarty wines.

FWIW the three best SCM chards I’ve had have been the Mount Eden 85 and the Ridge 96 and 77 Monte Bello.

Edit to add: Duane Cronin (RIP) made some outstanding SCM chards (along with Monterey and Sonoma) also back in the day.