I buy and drink a lot of St. Joe. I’m curious as to what peoples’ thoughts are on vintages and drinking windows. Also, I realize Saint Joseph is a large appellation covering various terroirs, some good and some mediocre. Please talk about producers, vintages, terroirs and different bottlings. For instance I try to buy Faury’s St. Joe in most vintages. Obviously the VV ages longer than the regular bottling. I tend to drink the regular cuvee around 6-8 years but don’t have much experience with the VV. Rule of 15? Looking forward to input.
My experience is mostly with Chave’s Domaine St. Jo and it ages very well. The best ones we’ve had recently have been the 2004 and 2005, and 2001 has been very good as well. 05 looks like a particularly good and age-worthy vintage. I haven’t tasted 2006/7 myself but I’ve heard good accounts.
The “lesser” years like 2008 and 2011 have drunk very well though it seems like they will age too. I’ve also enjoyed younger wines from less ripe vintages like 2013/4. Bigger vintages like 2015, 2017 and 2018 are impressive and powerful. They can also be drunk young but I expect they’ll repay aging - rule of 15 may not be a bad idea. 2010 is also in this camp and seems to be one of the best.
I drink a lot of Saint-Joseph. I find the wines more open and agreeable in their youth than, say, Cornas, so I tend to drink them young and cellar wines from the other Northern Rhone appellations - though I do cellar some Gonon. Some of the domaines I admire are:
Gonon
Gripa
Barge
Chave
Faury
Faurie (not made any longer, but these were great and cellar-worthy)
Xavier Gerard
Julien Cecillon
Monier-Perreol
Guy Farge
Barou
Emmanuel Darnaud
Jean-Claude Marsanne
Domaine Gachon (sigh)
I have a number of tasting notes on these on CellarTracker. None of the above employ much new oak.
I don’t think there have been any “bad” vintages for Saint-Joseph since 2008. Really, since 2009 it’s been a string of fine to very fine to very excellent vintages. Even 2018s wines, which early on have seemed very blocky and charmless, probably have better futures ahead of them.
Actually looking at the list above, I’d suggest that Barou be drunk up young, while they still have lots of bright fruit. But maybe age 10 is a good all purpose rule otherwise.
Zachary has a much more winegeeky/WB/Chamber St style holdings as my crossover names with his might only be four or five names.
I was trying to think why I had this sense of deja vu about this thread, then realized it’s like this one from a half decade ago
Thanks to the link from previously Arv. How about a discussion of vintages recent to older. I’m in agreement with Zack as I like the youthful fruit of a well made wine but wonder about holding out for the long term. I like '11’s now at ten years old and think they may go longer. A '16 Faury regular bottling opened a year ago was spectacular but recently it seems to have tightened up and receded. The '17’s and '18’s are nowhere near the '16’s. Any other producers people have experience with? Pierre Seches, Jean Marsanne, E & J Durand, Monier, Alexandrins, Rouchier, Luyton, Cote St Epine, Miquettes?
I have just a few experiences with some of those producers:
Pierres Seches - Sylvain Gauthier’s Saint-Josephs are dark, very dense, wild and full of umami but so extracted that it has been hard to get a read on them in their youth. I put a few 2015s away for later.
Alexandrins - these wines seem like the real deal, fresh, deep, and meaty. I stashed a 2015, and also a bit of the 2015 Cornas.
Rouchier - very positive results, classic Saint-Joseph. The 2016 is outstanding and needs some cellar time.
Luyton - perfectly fine but boring
Cote St. Epine - small sample size caveat, but this has shown extreme swings from vintage to vintage. I liked the 2012 which seemed classic, loved the 2013 (and stashed a few in the cellar), but the 2015 is impossibly tannic and I doubt it will ever come around. The 2016 is better and I enjoyed it.
Miquettes - my one experience was with the 2016 Madloba and it was awful - dark and brutish on the first day; gout-de-souris nightmare when I came back to it two days later.
A few others:
2017 Domaine Jolivet St. Joseph 1907 - just not good
2016 Domaine de la Sarbèche St. Joseph - same
2017 Cave Pinheiro St. Joseph Cuvée Les Machons - very good and a fine value
Thanks for your fine analysis of those producers Zach. I have some Cave Pinheiro stashed in earlier vintages. Could you talk about vintages? I really love 2016, think 2015 will be long term and haven’t opened too many 17’s or 18’s.
11’s and 14’s are certainly drinkable now but could go longer. 12’s and 13’s not much experience, 09 is imo opulent borderline flabby and 10 is good the excellent vintage. The 05 & 06 regular Faurys I’ve opened recently seemed on a downward trajectory. Don’t have any of the VV. 05 Chapoutier Granits never seems to please but then: Chapoutier.
2016 Francois Tissot Saint Joseph ‘Les Sept Pierres’ was quite impressive the other day with dinner.
I’m not familiar with the producer (Zach might know) and so, googled. 40 y o vines in granite, partially de-stemmed, 100% old-neutral barrels. I’ll be watching out for these.
I agree regarding 2015 - I think the best 2015s will be glorious in time. Ordinarily I prefer less gaga ripe vintage but 2015 seems like it has the acid/tannin structure to really shine in time. The 2015 Gonon is ridiculously good.
I love 2016, too - the wines are so open but also have sneaky grip that comes out with air.
I agree on the Barou. I’m not seeing anything when I poke around on the web now, but I recall Chambers St or someone saying that Barou did partly whole berry/carbonic maceration, which would explain the very exuberant fruit they can show when young.
Over three nights, the 2015 Barou ‘Autre Monde’ [St Joseph] is quite solid, a proper still purplish example of the varietal and AOC. It has a nose of white pepper, then tangy blackberry on the palate. It’s fresh and showing juicy acid even at age 9. 13% abv, a natural cork, with medium body and mostly resolved structure. There is some sediment in bottle, which I had not noted in my last bottle, some 1000 days ago. Still going strong, even if my inclination would be to drink this fruity St Joe on the early side. This was a CSW direct import and I’d give it a delightful B+ on my scorecard.
I pigged out on the solar 2015’s, across the whole No.Rho, and bought scant releases afterward, but that was more related to an overall desire to begin decumulation, rather than a super specific Rhone vintage analysis. Historically, I’ve always been the worst kind of American wine consumer across all categories - a fair weather fan in the fat years, and a pass in all others. I do realize how craptastic that is for the industry/merchants.
Buy blachon margiriat. I believe only Lyle fass has it. It’s a dead ringer for go on at about $65. Only Saint Joseph I’ve had that has that olive juice component besides gonon.
Consider me a huge fan of 2014 and 2011, vintages that were not raved about by the critics. I like the tension in these wines, and the aromatics are off the charts. I’d take these vintages over the much-vaunted 2015 any day of the week. And then have been drinking well from day one.
I concur with @Zachary_Ross and we seem to overlap on producers we like. I do cellar many, but have no compunction at all drinking and enjoying them in their youth. I drink a lot of young Gonon, and other than 2010 - maybe Rule of 25 for that one - I have never been disappointed that I popped one early, well maybe 2013 as well.
Generally not a fan of the riper vintages like 2015 and 2018, but will admit that Gonon worked magic in these vintages. Others did not.
Thanks for your comments Robert. Unfortunately we don’t get much Gonon in Hawaii so I rely on what is available like Faury and whatever I can get on the mainland and have shipped.
A few N Rhones I picked up recently were a 2021 Croze from Etienne Becheras, a Rosenthal import and a 2020 St. Joe from Thomas Farge. The Farge was tough as nails, astrigent, lacking fruit and painful to drink whereas the Croze opened up with air to a beautiful syrah, aromatic, good fruit, some coffee and cigar wrapper, very nice. Curious what others think about 2020/2021?
I haven’t tasted that many wines from either 2020 or 2021, but my impressions match the common wisdom: 2020 is a ripe but not overripe vintage with lots of wines of character, 2021 is a “throwback” vintage of crisp, defined wines that are occasionally underripe.
About 2021, Livingstone-Learmonth says: “2021 will stand apart from the previous vintages, harking back to vintages even forty years ago, when ripening up the grapes was usually a challenge. It will deliver interesting wines, not scaled up in any way, perhaps loose, but capable of giving pleasure from an early date, their appeal enhanced by degrees often 2° lower than 2019 and 2020.”
Many producers chaptalized in 2021. The two wines I have tasted were both awful (notes below) but I have great faith in the top producers that I cellar.
2021 Domaine des Amphores St. Joseph Les 7 Lieux - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, St. Joseph (3/19/2023)
Not a particularly pleasant bottle of wine, at least at this juncture. Very stern and stemmy, with not enough fruit or body to compensate.
2021 André Perret St. Joseph - France, Rhône, Northern Rhône, St. Joseph (3/10/2024)
Hard, dull, and unyielding on pnp - just not terribly pleasant. Maybe it needs some time to show better? I'm not going to try. Apparently this was chaptalized from 11.5% to 12.5% (per JLL).
It was commonplace in the 1990s, and now in 2021 as well. For example:
LIONEL FAURY also referred to the past: “2021 is a vintage in the ancient manner for Saint-Joseph reds – 20+ years ago. I lost 10%, with degrees 11.5° natural, all the wines chaptalised."
CHRISTIAN ROUCHIER , organic grower above St-Jean-de-Muzols, also pointed to progress over time, telling me: “I raised 2021 longer than usual, until Christmas 2023, due to the high level of acidity that needed dealing with, and chaptalised the 2021 St Jo reds from 11°-11.5° to 12°-12.5°. I am confident about 2021 - everyone says it isn’t great, but it will come together.”
YVES GANGLOFF , whose St Jo vineyards are high up at Peyraud, was in a similar position, recounting**:** “2021 Syrah degree was around 11° natural, pre-chaptalisation, and the whites were 12.5°.”
I think '21 is generally a bit of a leaner year and not as good as surrounding vintages overall, but in my limited experience so far, great producers (e.g., Gonon, Clape, Maison Stephan, etc.) made great '21 N. Rhone Syrahs at their highest level. I’d be more cautious of '21s at the entry level (e.g., VdP, CdR, wines you would more typically find by the glass).
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