Why do you say he had to go to the UK to be diagnosed?
SC lives on everyone’s skin (and internals) and all over the place. It’s virtually impossible to keep various strains from making it into a ferment. The different strains have strengths and weaknesses, so you can find sea changes of what yeast is dominant at what phase of a ferment, and it can easily vary by fermenter of the same wine, and year-to-year. If you start wild, something will take over. (SC population on the grapes ranges from zero to about one in a million of the yeast cells.) If you nuke the must with SO2 to kill everything, then inoculate, you’ll still most likely have another strain take over when the ever changing conditions get to a point it has the competitive advantage, then another may take over later, and so on.
Natural/wild/ambient SC that’s capable of finishing a ferm (ethanol is a toxin to all of them, and tolerance varies greatly) is most likely an escaped commercial strain. Commercial strains are just ones that have been isolated for specific sets of advantages.
I have an occasional reaction to some wine, beer, etc. It’s enough that I feel it on the first sip. Being aware of the warning sign is key, so I know to spit it out and not revisit or I’ll have a migraine.
What about aldehydes? Another complicated subject with a family of compounds highly involved in wine. “Aldehydes are known sensitizers for small populations of humans and serve to cause chemically induced allergic reactions. The effects of these reactions can be dramatic at rather low concentrations.”
There was an another article that I found that said the patient was from the U.S. (I recall Minnesota) and the lead doctor is in the UK. I myself have told many doctors of this reaction in the past and none believe me, so its reasonable to me he had to find a doctor to diagnose him – didn’t need to be in the UK but this doctor is in the UK. I had googled for hours pre-2017 prior to this study coming out, and found nothing.
Doctors split on it being GERD or autoimmune (I suspect they are related). Antacids can reduce it 99%. I have been able to control it by going on elimination diets. My bloodwork did not get worse when I consumed vodka and red wine while on the elimination diet, but I am thinking of doing a more extended version of the elimination diet post the FMT I plan to do in July.
Are they more prominent in white vs red?
How did you determine what to avoid?
Did you ever spend time on an antacid?
Doctors may seem to be split because some people get if from plain old GERD and others have an allergic/immunologic component to it.
Are there any wines that produce the negative result when you drink them again? I.e. is this a ‘repeatable’ finding?
I have done a bad job of documenting the incidents over the years (half built excel spread sheets, changing phones/computers, and fatigue). Below are incidents I have some notes on.
7/4/15 Sunny Republic Beach Blond Pacific Pale Ale 4.4% Hoppy Beer off draft
Email correspondence with MFG said no additives used
They suggested dirty pub lines
7/2/16 Schramsberg champagne, French Laundry cuvee
Purchased from French Laundry in 2011-12 when I did not have a reaction
Straight fire this one
Email inquiry with the Domaine stated:
The amount of yeast does not differ between bottles. The majority of whites and ciders are sterile filtered which removes the all of yeast used for fermentation. The charmant processed sparkling wines are also sterile filtered and carbonated with CO2 which are usually in the lower price points. In regards to methode champenoise sparkling wines, the yeast is removed through riddling. The yeast along with a riddling aid (sand) is removed from the bottle at the time of disgorging. This process removes all of the visual yeast. The remaining yeast are so few or fermentation would occur after the dosage was added. We use one strain for all of our secondary fermentations.
(I just asked what the strain was June 2019)
Thanksgiving 2016 - Higher End Spatlese (cannot find receive or photo)
50/50 retailer may have record in store (not on their online account)
Sometime in 2017 - Angry Orchard Pear Cider
I had Angry Orchard in 2016 without a reaction, though it was Pear Cider
This second one crushed me with the body ache
Sometime in 2017 - Alteni di Brassica Langhe 2014
burning sensation throughout my esophagus to the stomach, and a subsequent body ache
(on less than half a glass)
8/8/17 Docs Draft Original Hard Apple Cider: significant reaction
8/8/17 South Hill Cider Bluegrass: Stronger than Docs Cider
5/29/18 Catena Zapata (2010 Malbec Cabernet Blend?)
The only red I can recall that gave me a similar feeling
2019 - Assorted Riesling/champagne sips = reaction
2019 - 2 natural whites in Paris = no reaction
May 2019 - 2001 Rieussec Sauternes
Strong reaction. Body ache, etc.
Winery informs the only non-native yeast they use is S. Cervisea
No reactions to other white sweet wines: Suduirat (various vintages), Yquem (two vintages), Climens (one vintage), Royal Tokaji (multiple vintages), 2-3 other Tokaji.
The hit rate on Champagnes (< 5 sample set) seems to be 50%+
The hit rate on whites (< 10 sample set) seems to be 50%+
The day I went and got 6 ciders (thinking Gluten maybe the issue?) the hit rate was 50%+
No reactions to 250+ reds tasted in the past year or so.
- I ate a hypoallergenic diet (white rice, chicken/lamb, salt pepper, and lemon juice) for 60 days and then reintroduced foods. Another time I did the GAPS intro diet for about 60 days. Both times the symptoms go away, but these are very restrictive diets. I guess what could be interesting, is taking a repeat offender wine that creates burning throat sensation, and then try it after the elimination diet (tie the reaction to an overall level of inflammation).
- Only when Doctors (Weill Cornell) were trying to determine the cause of the esophagitis. As they outlined it, if you take antacid and the esophagitis goes away, then you GERD caused esophagitis. As my esophagitis went away 99% but not 100%, they were split as to the cause. Given I see a lot of esophagitis in younger folks whose immediate relatives have autoimmune disease, I suspect the espophagitis is auto-immune related (the view is allergy is different than autoimmune). The doctors disagree with this causal observation (but cannot disprove it).
- On the repeat effect, I need to do this. I need to work with the Rieussec since that’s the most recent wine, available in varied vintages, and I have more of the 2001 (same stock). And I’m sure I can find folks to indulge in a vertical of Rieussec truly in the name of science. In fact, I may try to do this a week from now, ahead of the FMT.
I genuinely & sincerely appreciate everyone’s thoughts and interest.
That sauternes is very acidic, actually.
I’d look for a higher pH wine for your challenge.
Interestingly…you seem to have some correlation with the pH.
Remember, each ‘point’ on the pH scale is a tenfold difference! (Also, the alcohol can make it more irritating than a Coke, even though the Coke has a lower pH. Even vodka is only 1/10th the acidity of the wines you mention.)
The cider is closer in pH to white wine than red wine.
Your general wine flares seem to relate to a low pH, around 3. Pouring that down a gullet that has eosinophilic esophagitis would be excting to watch!
So, you never undertook an antacid trial? It doesn’t have to be forever, but can take 6 weeks or more to start showing its benefit. (Watch out for crazy people who say antacids will kill you some way…a 6 weeks trial could answer your question, then you could decide if you want to continue.)
This may be as simple as a pH thing in someone with a delicate food pipe! ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Anton, I did the antacid for the esophagitis and it did work.
The PH issue has been raised by others and isn’t triggered by coke, lemonade etc. But maybe there is a sweet spot involved (a lower PH is a less an issue)
I don’t know about relative prominence.
If anyone is interested in a tasting of a couple of Rieussec next week in NY/Midtown East, please PM me! Will either be Tue or Wed (likely Wed).
Will open another 2001 from the same lot (buying another 2001 is pretty expensive), and it seems I can pick up a 1999, 2004 and 2009 from a single NY retailer who has been an on-time shipper in the past.
Not sure about location, yet (may be super casual).
I feel like I’m watching a real-life episode of House.
Skin tests, poop tests, blood tests, other tests, elimination diets, gut repair diets, supplements, MDs, functional practitioners (acupuncture, ayurveda, western based)… I’ve been there. What’s interesting is a correlation between many things. 2000 year old Ayurveda has recommended elimination of dairy, tomato/night shades, nuts, chickpeas, anything fermented, and other foods… a lot of these foods later showed up on IGG results years later. I thought homeopathic medicine was quack (and only thing I haven’t tried) and have recently been reading about increased medical efficacy of compounds in ultra low/diluted dose (which is what homeopathy is). Next step for me is FMT + a version of Ayurveda/GAPs for an extended period of time and see what happens (a hope, not a strategy, that my gut lining is is damaged and an FMT can help reset it, with aid from past easy-to-digest diets)… and if that doesn’t yield incremental improvement… ![[head-bang.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/b1cd199e4b2b2988b5107c3c9598fd28dc92a776.gif "[head-bang.gif]"){kind=small}
Wow, interesting thread! From that last breakdown, it seems like maybe something in grape skins mitigates or binds the offending compound, which may be a fermentation byproduct and not grape specific, since it happens with ciders as well? How about skin-contact/orange/amber wines?
I take the generic protonix.
I recently had a 2013 Olivier Horiat “En Valingrain” Rose with no reaction; I liked the wine too. I was told the producer makes it naturally/native yeast, and that was the reason. I do recall having Rose reactions 5YRs ago and haven’t had a Rose in many years… will need to revisit.
At same dinner, I did have a reaction to 2002 Dirler Alsace Grand Crue Spiegel Riesling. I don’t believe - but am in retrospect not 100% sure - that I had a reaction to a 2005 Von Schubert Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg Riesling Beerenauslese (my WOTY).