RUDY KURNIAWAN & GLOBAL WINE AUCTION FRAUD THREAD (MERGED)

[Ken_V]

Note to self: Never, ever piss off Don Cornwell.

[AlexHay]

How funny to see this on Jeopardy!

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

@Berry Crawford

@Bruce Leiserowitz

For me, much of the problem would be solved by requiring consignors to disclose to auction houses, and auction houses to disclose in the catalogs, as much of the basic provenance information as is possible and reasonable.

People can and do lie about provenance.

Yes, but you can request the consignor to provide sample documentation to provide a better level of comfort on provenance.

I think most people would agree that there is an inherent risk of fake or poorly-stored wines being sent off to auction (or otherwise appearing on the market). The question for the industry is what reasonable steps can be taken–both by potential consignors and by auction houses–to try to reduce that level of risk to more acceptable levels.

Right now, it seems as if it’s a bit of a Wild West situation, where every auction firm handles the issues differently, but often in a non-transparent way. Then, to compound matters, they’ll include language that seeks to absolve them as much as possible for any issues with inauthentic or questionable bottles.

Bruce

[Claus_Jeppesen]

@Don Cornwell

@Tom Reddick

Wasn’t 1951 the first year of production from the new vines? I cannot imagine there was a lot of released production in those first few vintages when the wine was again back on the market. I have seen virtually zero RC come to market from the 1951-1958 vintages in my 15 years in the wine game. Vintage can explain some of that, but not 1952, 1953 or 1955. So I have assumed it was a question of production in addition to the fact burgundies were not generally laid down with Bordeaux-like time frames in mind to the extent they are today.

Tom:

Romanee Conti’s vines were removed after the 45 vintage. The land was left fallow until 1947 when new vines were planted. There was no Romanee Conti released between 1945 and 1952. The total number of bottles produced and the bottle numbers began to be used in 1953 and the signatures went back on the labels. The 1952 labels are astonishingly spare and thankfully unique. I still don’t have a good exemplar to compare with the 1952 Romanee Conti label but I’ve seen the 52 La Tache.

This was apparently not the case for La Tache as it appears from these Meadows notes on both the 47 and 49: (?)
http://imperatrice.com.hk/producers/drc-la-tache.html

It still puzzles me that none of the DRC 45 drinkers mentioned here (Meadows, Rosania) volunteered their photos of the bottles they have consumed (or have in the cellar), when this was called for by Don prior to the auction.
Another thing: what happened to the empties on the numerous occasion this wine apparently was consumed? (With / without Rudy´s presence)

/Claus

[Tom_Reddick]

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[dcornutt]

@Tom Reddick

@Claus Jeppesen

This was apparently not the case for La Tache as it appears from these Meadows notes on both the 47 and 49: (?)

It was just Romanee Conti dug up in 1945- one of the last vineyards in France to succumb (though a handful of things made it through- Bollinger still has some pre-phylloxera vines).

La Tache is large enough they might have been able to do it in parcels, but I have no idea when that took place. Either way, I have never heard of La Tache having a period where no wine was made/marketed for several vintages due to a grubbing up and replanting.

Tom. I do know that there was no La Tache made in 1948. The vines were too young after being replaced. The wine that these young vines helped fortify was the Grands Echezeaux. A stunning wine. My understanding only.

[k_s_h_i_n]

@dcornutt

@Tom Reddick

@Claus Jeppesen

This was apparently not the case for La Tache as it appears from these Meadows notes on both the 47 and 49: (?)

It was just Romanee Conti dug up in 1945- one of the last vineyards in France to succumb (though a handful of things made it through- Bollinger still has some pre-phylloxera vines).

La Tache is large enough they might have been able to do it in parcels, but I have no idea when that took place. Either way, I have never heard of La Tache having a period where no wine was made/marketed for several vintages due to a grubbing up and replanting.

Tom. I do know that there was no La Tache made in 1948. The vines were too young after being replaced. The wine that these young vines helped fortify was the Grands Echezeaux. A stunning wine. My understanding only.

Don,
That magnum was 100 in hedonistic scale, so fresh, sweet and expressive.

[Claude_Kolm]

@Tom Reddick

@Claus Jeppesen

This was apparently not the case for La Tache as it appears from these Meadows notes on both the 47 and 49: (?)

It was just Romanee Conti dug up in 1945- one of the last vineyards in France to succumb (though a handful of things made it through- Bollinger still has some pre-phylloxera vines).

A couple of corrections, Tom. Part of Richebourg was still in old vines and dug up after 1945, too.

The Bollinger vines are ungrafted but not pre-phylloxera.

[Barry_P]

In the spirit of Don digging down on Spectrum, I became curious about this Antonio Castanos fellow and did a very short dig.

There seems to be an Antonio Castanos living in L.A. He is the owner of Porcini Inc. (also known as Guido’s Restaurant). Given that is Rudi’s place of residence, it seemed that it might be the same consignor we’ve been hearing about.

Guido’s wine list (Guido's Italian Cuisine) isn’t too bad really, but it sure doesn’t reflect the kind of list an owner who has a passion for DRC and old red burg and bordeaux might develop.

Wonder if it is the same guy.

[Don_Cornwell]

@Barry P

In the spirit of Don digging down on Spectrum, I became curious about this Antonio Castanos fellow and did a very short dig.

There seems to be an Antonio Castanos living in L.A. He is the owner of Porcini Inc. (also known as Guido’s Restaurant). Given that is Rudi’s place of residence, it seemed that it might be the same consignor we’ve been hearing about.

Guido’s wine list (Guido's Italian Cuisine) isn’t too bad really, but it sure doesn’t reflect the kind of list an owner who has a passion for DRC and old red burg and bordeaux might develop.

Wonder if it is the same guy.

Barry:

Yes it is the same guy.

[Tom_Blach]

Who knew that Romanee Conti 51 was sold off in its entirety and ended up bottled as Grands Echezeaux, Poulet pere et fils?

[Tom_Reddick]

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[Tom_Reddick]

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[Don_Cornwell]

@Tom Reddick

just on a lark, on the information you just provided I checked winesearcher. Nothing currently, but if you look at the snapshot of 2 years ago with the pricing history option, there was not only a 1948 La Tache for sale the the UK, but a 1948 Romanee-Conti for sale in New York! The RC price was not far off the La Tache price, and the mania was already on a high for RC, so it may well be a mislisting of a fake RC instead of a fake LT- but no way to check the detailed listings on historical offerings.

It could be interesting to check winesearcher history on many of the DRCs that were never made and see if any patterns emerge. For those not familiar, it was not unheard of for the DRC to not issue certain wines in the old days- much as Yquem would sometimes skip issuing a vintage. So there would be plenty of things to check…

Tom:

Any 1948 DRC Romanee Conti that’s offered is 100% fake. The vines were pulled out in 1947 after laying dormant since the 45 harvest. You may remember that about two decades ago John Tilson of the Underground Wine Journal exposed the fake 1947 Romanee Conti being offered for sale in New Orleans.

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Tom Reddick

@Claude Kolm

@Tom Reddick

It was just Romanee Conti dug up in 1945- one of the last vineyards in France to succumb (though a handful of things made it through- Bollinger still has some pre-phylloxera vines).

A couple of corrections, Tom. Part of Richebourg was still in old vines and dug up in 1945, too.

The Bollinger vines are ungrafted but not pre-phylloxera.

Claude- thank you. Appreciate the information. One question if I may- I can understand the “ungrafted” bit and what that would mean, but I always though the vines themselves were pre-phylloxera. That got me thinking and I realized I don’t really even know what years would be a more precise boundary for that beyond the notion of when a given Bordeaux vineyard’s replanting got underway. Are you saying these vines were planted after phylloxera was on the rampage, but that they escaped the need for grafting?

No, in this particular case it’s not even close. The vines for Bollinger "VV"F are actually relatively young. I’ve forgotten any exact numbers but they’re just a few decades old on average, and none much older than that.

[Claude_Kolm]

@Tom Reddick

@Claude Kolm

@Tom Reddick

It was just Romanee Conti dug up in 1945- one of the last vineyards in France to succumb (though a handful of things made it through- Bollinger still has some pre-phylloxera vines).

A couple of corrections, Tom. Part of Richebourg was still in old vines and dug up in 1945, too.

The Bollinger vines are ungrafted but not pre-phylloxera.

Claude- thank you. Appreciate the information. One question if I may- I can understand the “ungrafted” bit and what that would mean, but I always though the vines themselves were pre-phylloxera. That got me thinking and I realized I don’t really even know what years would be a more precise boundary for that beyond the notion of when a given Bordeaux vineyard’s replanting got underway. Are you saying these vines were planted after phylloxera was on the rampage, but that they escaped the need for grafting?

Tom – My understanding is that they are planted on European rootstalks (i.e., ungrafted), but do not predate phylloxera; indeed, the vineyards (used to be three, now two because phylloxera attacked one of them)/wine only came about because of Cyril Ray’s suggestion to Mme Bollinger ca. 1960 (1970 was the first commercial release). Here’s Jamie Goode on them: Visiting Champagne Bollinger, part 1 - Vieilles Vignes Francaises. Wikipedia (FWIW) says that the “vieilles vignes” refers to the way the vines are trained, not to their age: Bollinger - Wikipedia. Interestingly, Jamie says 30,000 vines/ha, wikipedia says 3000 vines/ha; Jamie’s photos support the latter. Unfortunately, Bollinger’s own website is not helpful.

Add on edit: looking at the film on Jamie’s site, I see how he arrives at the higher number, although would it be as high as 30,000?

[Tom_Reddick]

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[Tom_Reddick]

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[Nick_Gangas]

Tom,
I was also under the impression for many years that the VV were pre-phylloxera. Only recently did I learn that they are more recent but original root stock and not grafted onto American root stock.

[Tom_Reddick]

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