Rudy kurniawan & global wine auction fraud thread (merged)

[Peter_Kleban]

To me this sounds like a bubble that, sooner or later, will break.

[rebeccagibb]

Thanks to Don for bringing this to our attention. As a member of the wine press, I have contacted Christie’s in Hong Kong and requested a telephone interview in response to his claims. I was refused but have been given an email response, which is now online at Wine-Searcher.
http://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2013/03/authenticity-of-henry-tang-wines-queried

[billnanson]

Well-done Rebecca!

[Lewis_Dawson]

Indeed, well done, Rebecca. And welcome to Wineberserkers. It would be great if the mainstream press picked up this story.

[Anthony_Hall]

Welcome rebecca. How about putting wine beserkers as one of your recommended links !

About Rebecca - Rebecca Gibb - Master of Wine

[Robin_Wu]

Didnt Zachys recently try to sell a similar bottle of 71 La Tache (both in HK and in NY Paulee Auction)? IIRC, they pulled the lot in HK.

[cedricmanet]

As a small wine merchant from Bordeaux I am really concerned by all these fake bottles…
Confidence is the most important in this business of rare wines and by selling such bottles, these auction houses make consumers become suspicious.
Some people say they are experts of rare wines but when you see these wax capsules, how can you offer them for sale ???
I have sold and seen a lot of old bottles and I do not understand these “professionnals of wine”…

[Kevin_Sidders]

@David Glasser

@Tom Blach

It is worth bearing in mind that many of the purchasers of these lots value things other than the way the wine tastes, at which point meanings change quite significantly. Nobody really loves top grade shark’s fin for its remarkable texture and claimed health-giving properties, it’s all about what it represents.

I understand this sentiment, Tom. However, in other fields (art, vintage cars, etc.) the collectors prize authenticity and put a premium on it. It’s as if collectors of rare wine have succumbed to a mass-hysteria sort of delusional denial. Either that, or they are crass enough not to care about authenticity, and are happy to pass off their trophies as real regardless of provenance.

This is precisely what I don’t understand about this situation. I was of the impression that these auction houses were incredibly diligent in their authenticity research because they had to be. Perhaps that’s the answer in this case – at least as it relates to wine, maybe they don’t have to be if consumers are willing to pay six figure sums regardless…

[Peter_Kleban]

@Kevin Sidders

@David Glasser

@Tom Blach

It is worth bearing in mind that many of the purchasers of these lots value things other than the way the wine tastes, at which point meanings change quite significantly. Nobody really loves top grade shark’s fin for its remarkable texture and claimed health-giving properties, it’s all about what it represents.

I understand this sentiment, Tom. However, in other fields (art, vintage cars, etc.) the collectors prize authenticity and put a premium on it. It’s as if collectors of rare wine have succumbed to a mass-hysteria sort of delusional denial. Either that, or they are crass enough not to care about authenticity, and are happy to pass off their trophies as real regardless of provenance.

This is precisely what I don’t understand about this situation. I was of the impression that these auction houses were incredibly diligent in their authenticity research because they had to be. Perhaps that’s the answer in this case – at least as it relates to wine, maybe they don’t have to be if consumers are willing to pay six figure sums regardless…

To me it sounds like a house of cards. Collectors want old, expensive trophy wines. So they go to established auction houses. They “must” be carefully vetting their offerings, otherwise they wouldn’t be respectable. The very high prices reinforce their bone fides. Occasionally removing bottles at the last minute probably helps, if anything. Until somebody like Don comes along…then the whole thing can collapse, once the news gets out and is noticed.

[drsugarman]

@Robin Wu

Didnt Zachys recently try to sell a similar bottle of 71 La Tache (both in HK and in NY Paulee Auction)? IIRC, they pulled the lot in HK.

It didn’t sell in NYC … it was passed.

[Jim_Burk]

I have asked many fairly serious wine drinkers what they think about this story, and am amazed at how few have any idea that it is going on! So I am not too surprised that the auctions just keep rolling along.

[rebeccagibb]

Thanks to Bill, Lewis and Anthony for the warm welcomes to the forum. I shall keep my eyes peeled for more suspicious lots you eagle-eyed bunch detect and ask the questions to the powers that be.

Anthony, I’m happy to put a link from my blog to Wine Berserkers (when I work out how to do it!!)

[Peter_Kleban]

@rebeccagibb

Thanks to Bill, Lewis and Anthony for the warm welcomes to the forum. I shall keep my eyes peeled for more suspicious lots you eagle-eyed bunch detect and ask the questions to the powers that be.

Anthony, I’m happy to put a link from my blog to Wine Berserkers (when I work out how to do it!!)

Let me extend a welcome also! Hope you enjoy this place–it can be a lot of fun.

[ToddFrench]

This just hit my inbox - Tang wine auction clouded by doubts over authenticity | South China Morning Post

[gene_keenan]

@Todd F r e n c h

This just hit my inbox - Tang wine auction clouded by doubts over authenticity | South China Morning Post

A detailed counterfeit wine allegation by Los Angeles-based lawyer Don Cornwell has been circulating on Wine Berserkers, an online forum with more than a million registered wine buffs, and other forums since Saturday.

Congrats Todd on reaching a million members!!!

[cjsavino]

@Todd F r e n c h

This just hit my inbox - Tang wine auction clouded by doubts over authenticity | South China Morning Post

I liked the picture

[ToddFrench]

@gene keenan

@Todd F r e n c h

This just hit my inbox - Tang wine auction clouded by doubts over authenticity | South China Morning Post

A detailed counterfeit wine allegation by Los Angeles-based lawyer Don Cornwell has been circulating on Wine Berserkers, an online forum with more than a million registered wine buffs, and other forums since Saturday.

Congrats Todd on reaching a million members!!!

From 9,000 to over a million! Boo ya!

If I approved all the spam memberships, we’d actually be darn near close to 1,000,000 now! (a trick many forums utilize, activating spam memberships but not allowing them to post)

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

@gene keenan

[
A detailed counterfeit wine allegation by Los Angeles-based lawyer Don Cornwell has been circulating on Wine Berserkers, an online forum with more than a million registered wine buffs, and other forums since Saturday.

Congrats Todd on reaching a million members!!!

I dare say many of us aren’t really that buff, but why quibble over adjectives?

Bruce

[Didier_Li]

If these auction houses were really intent on stamping out counterfeit DRCs from their auctions, they would simply hire Mr. Cornwell as a consultant! The fact that they continually ignore him speaks volumes as to their true motives…

[Robin_Wu]

The fact that this auction was Henry Tang’s private collection and the way Christie’s hyped up the sale is turning out to be a blessing in disguise. Because of the amount of press around the event, this fake wine story also catching a lot of press and discussion here amongst the general public in HK. Previously, mainly only the wine-drinking community in HK cared, and while certainly the general public at this point in time are looking with shades of schadefreude, at least the awareness levels has improved.