Riesling - the struggle is real.

[Markus_S]

In an Oregon Wine History Archive, John House of Ovum mentioned that they made their best Riesling of the 2016 vintage from grapes of a particular older vine vineyard. The next year, without even telling them, the grower grafted the entire thing over to Chardonnay.

I get the drive to want to sell your agricultural product for more by switching the varieties, but to not even give a heads up to the winemaker who has been purchasing the grapes prior has got to be pretty demoralising. Been meaning to check out Ovum’s wines. Didn’t know they did an interview with the Linfield University folks. I’ll have to check it out

Prime reason you want to own your own vineyards.

[Adam_Frisch]

Against all better judgement, I’ve signed 2 more contracts for Riesling this year . But, I can report that simply finding Riesling growers is hard in CA. Now the growing statistics say it’s planted to a pretty decent acreage, but this fruit doesn’t seem to show up on the open market - I’m thinking this mainly goes into Bronco/Franzia boxed wines or white blends and such.

[larry_schaffer]

Against all better judgement, I’ve signed 2 more contracts for Riesling this year . But, I can report that simply finding Riesling growers is hard in CA. Now the growing statistics say it’s planted to a pretty decent acreage, but this fruit doesn’t seem to show up on the open market - I’m thinking this mainly goes into Bronco/Franzia boxed wines or white blends and such.

Nope - that’s Gewurztraminer . . .

Cheers

[Adam_Frisch]

Adam, what’s the price point on your Riesling? Because I drink a fair number of pretty affordable Austrian Rieslings in the $20-30 range, and the top tier wines can be had for $40-70 (leaving out some “cult” wines that are stupidly overpriced because they are instagram darlings).

Alan, I charge $29 for mine on website. I know there are a lot of great German Rieslings in that price point (but none as dry, of course ), so not an easy bracket. In fact, retailers and distributors hate the $30-bracket the most out of any as it’s kinda too expensive for the bargain hunters, and not expensive enough for the luxury hunters.

Interestingly, this R was actually my most expensive fruit that year to buy, so if anything, it should almost be a bit more. Santa Ynez and Santa Barbara County is always more pricey than the other regions I take from (as can be expected with their real estate prices).

[Adam_Frisch]

Against all better judgement, I’ve signed 2 more contracts for Riesling this year . But, I can report that simply finding Riesling growers is hard in CA. Now the growing statistics say it’s planted to a pretty decent acreage, but this fruit doesn’t seem to show up on the open market - I’m thinking this mainly goes into Bronco/Franzia boxed wines or white blends and such.

Nope - that’s Gewurztraminer . . .

Cheers

Is Gewurz more planted than Riesling here?

[Alan_Rath]

Adam, what’s the price point on your Riesling? Because I drink a fair number of pretty affordable Austrian Rieslings in the $20-30 range, and the top tier wines can be had for $40-70 (leaving out some “cult” wines that are stupidly overpriced because they are instagram darlings).

Alan, I charge $29 for mine on website. I know there are a lot of great German Rieslings in that price point (but none as dry, of course ), so not an easy bracket. In fact, retailers and distributors hate the $30-bracket the most out of any as it’s kinda too expensive for the bargain hunters, and not expensive enough for the luxury hunters.

Interestingly, this R was actually my most expensive fruit that year to buy, so if anything, it should almost be a bit more. Santa Ynez and Santa Barbara County is always more pricey than the other regions I take from (as can be expected with their real estate prices).

If I see yours, I will definitely try it. Honestly, I can’t remember having a domestic Riesling in eons. It may be harder to find dry German versions in that price range, I don’t shop for those, but there are plenty from Austria available that are very good.

[larry_schaffer]

Against all better judgement, I’ve signed 2 more contracts for Riesling this year . But, I can report that simply finding Riesling growers is hard in CA. Now the growing statistics say it’s planted to a pretty decent acreage, but this fruit doesn’t seem to show up on the open market - I’m thinking this mainly goes into Bronco/Franzia boxed wines or white blends and such.

Nope - that’s Gewurztraminer . . .

Cheers

Is Gewurz more planted than Riesling here?

530 tons of Riesling in District 8 vs. 77 tons of Gewurztraminer…

[Adam_Frisch]

Where is that 530 tons of Riesling going, Larry? Who buys that?

[larry_schaffer]

Where is that 530 tons of Riesling going? Who buys that?

My guess - most of it is produced by thosebwho grow it or from the area. Kick On Ranch? Tatomer, Municipal, Ojai. Fess Parker Vineyard? Fess Parker. Paragon?

[Eric_Ifune]

Roman Niewodniczanski is one of the heirs to the Bitburger Brewery fortune. If you can believe Wikipedia, the main brand had 800 Million Euros in sales for last year reported, and that is just one of their holdings. I am not sure where Roman is in the family, but the fact that the new tasting center cost a lot may not say much about how much he earns from his wines…

I believe Roman is one of the major heirs. I was at a tasting with him in Germany some time ago, soon after he purchased the estate. He had also just bought a bottle of the 1959 JJPrum Wehlener Sonnenuhr TBA! After dinner he lit up a double corona Cuban cigar. In that video, he looks to have hardly have aged. He’s the super tall guy with the pony tail.
Nice guy!

[Chris_Seiber]

My thoughts:

(1) There is definitely truth to the idea that consumers think they aren’t supposed to like sweet tasting wines, and that serving sweet wines to others will make them seem unsophisticated

(2) The consumer aversion to sweet wines is not only because of social pressure; it’s probably based on many inexpensive sweet wines of various white and pink varieties that they’ve had and didn’t like, or lost their taste for as they started drinking decent dry wines

(3) When you serve a good quality and balanced riesling to civilians, they will often say “Oh, I don’t normally like riesling, but this is actually good” (but this is true for many other wines, as well – I get that reaction all the time by serving non-goopy chardonnay to people who say they don’t like chardonnay)

(4) German labels are totally unreadable to a regular customer, and probably even to the majority of people who are really avid wine enthusiasts

(5) Rather like syrah, customers are reluctant to gamble on ordering or buying something when there is such a wide range of what that could end up being. Is it light and crisp, is it rich and sweet, is it a thick dessert beverage or something to go with the meal?

(6) (This is a pretty subjective take of mine but I’ll throw it out anyway) Young riesling, while it can be tasty and a good pairing for certain foods, can feel like less of a wine or alcoholic beverage experience than most varieties at a similar quality point. It can feel more like a fresh fruit beverage - a nice tasting one, but not one that fits as naturally into people’s ideas and expectations for a wine experience. I know that’s a weird thing to say, and no doubt many will disagree, but I’m just making an observation on why I think many people put it in a category outside of the “what I want to drink when I feel like having wine.” It’s just kind of a different cat.

(7) (Another highly subjective take of mine) Riesling becomes less sweet, more complex, and more of a wine experience once it has a significant amount of age, yet it’s really rare to find aged riesling, unless you are at a Lotus of Siam type place.

(8) The very low alcohol (at least in traditional German and German-style riesling), which might often be a plus to wine geeks, may have the opposite appeal to average consumers.

[ChrisJames]

In an Oregon Wine History Archive, John House of Ovum mentioned that they made their best Riesling of the 2016 vintage from grapes of a particular older vine vineyard. The next year, without even telling them, the grower grafted the entire thing over to Chardonnay.

I get the drive to want to sell your agricultural product for more by switching the varieties, but to not even give a heads up to the winemaker who has been purchasing the grapes prior has got to be pretty demoralising. Been meaning to check out Ovum’s wines. Didn’t know they did an interview with the Linfield University folks. I’ll have to check it out

Prime reason you want to own your own vineyards.

Yes, I suppose so. But that doesn’t seem to be the way Oregon rolls. Ovum makes several wines from grapes purchased all the way from Ribbon Ridge to the border of California. It would be tough to own or even manage all of them. Many of the board favorites here - Goodfellow, Walter Scott, Kelley Fox, Morgan Long, Vincent, Biggio Hamina - own no vineyards. Jim Anderson (PGC) owns a fantastic estate vineyard yet still buys grapes from perhaps a dozen other vineyards. And this seems to be the case with many estate producers - grow some, buy some. It must be a big step up in terms of finances, knowledge, equipment, and labor to go from winemaker/producer of several cru to also being an owner/manager of a vineyard(s). I’d love to hear Jim’s, Marcus’s, etc. thoughts on that.

[Matt_K1]

Meanwhile, I am sorry Adam, but you are indeed swimming upstream through molasses. As others have noted, there just isn’t any ‘geek appeal’ to California Riesling. OTOH, New York’s Finger Lakes have really begun to develop a following. By coincidence, Eric Asimov’s New York Times wine column today was '10 New York State wines to Drink Now. Yes, two of them were Finger Lake Rieslings, both dry. Not cheap ones, at $28 and $37! I haven’t done a poll or seen any statistics, but I can tell you that before COVID, Finger Lakes Riesling was quite common on good NY restaurant wine lists, both in the city and upstate, often by the glass. It is also obviously for sale in any good NY wine shop, and not hidden on a dusty bottom shelf.

FLX seems like the answer to a lot of Riesling woes in this thread. Michigan as well. Clearly discernable labels, not being boxed in by heavy regulation on typicity, and experimentation are all hallmarks of eastern US Riesling.

[Dan_Kravitz]

My thoughts:

(1) There is definitely truth to the idea that consumers think they aren’t supposed to like sweet tasting wines, and that serving sweet wines to others will make them seem unsophisticated

(2) The consumer aversion to sweet wines is not only because of social pressure; it’s probably based on many inexpensive sweet wines of various white and pink varieties that they’ve had and didn’t like, or lost their taste for as they started drinking decent dry wines

(3) When you serve a good quality and balanced riesling to civilians, they will often say “Oh, I don’t normally like riesling, but this is actually good” (but this is true for many other wines, as well – I get that reaction all the time by serving non-goopy chardonnay to people who say they don’t like chardonnay)

(4) German labels are totally unreadable to a regular customer, and probably even to the majority of people who are really avid wine enthusiasts

(5) Rather like syrah, customers are reluctant to gamble on ordering or buying something when there is such a wide range of what that could end up being. Is it light and crisp, is it rich and sweet, is it a thick dessert beverage or something to go with the meal?

(6) (This is a pretty subjective take of mine but I’ll throw it out anyway) Young riesling, while it can be tasty and a good pairing for certain foods, can feel like less of a wine or alcoholic beverage experience than most varieties at a similar quality point. It can feel more like a fresh fruit beverage - a nice tasting one, but not one that fits as naturally into people’s ideas and expectations for a wine experience. I know that’s a weird thing to say, and no doubt many will disagree, but I’m just making an observation on why I think many people put it in a category outside of the “what I want to drink when I feel like having wine.” It’s just kind of a different cat.

(7) (Another highly subjective take of mine) Riesling becomes less sweet, more complex, and more of a wine experience once it has a significant amount of age, yet it’s really rare to find aged riesling, unless you are at a Lotus of Siam type place.

(8) The very low alcohol (at least in traditional German and German-style riesling), which might often be a plus to wine geeks, may have the opposite appeal to average consumers.

Chris makes some excellent points: People see the flute bottle and many either recoil or snicker. People who start with sweet wine and migrate to dry often never go back at all. German labels are very easy to read… if you speak German.

The point about young Riesling tasting like a fresh fruit beverage is well-taken. It’s part of what I used to love about it. It also sometimes makes it a very good match with notoriously tough foods for wine: Asparagus, artichoke, ham, soups…

Dan Kravitz

[Adam_Frisch]

Chris - great points. I think in these fragmented times, you need to allow a customer to shine a bit and be able to show off his/hers wine knowledge without having to study too hard. Everyone wants to feel like an expert, nobody enjoys being a fool. And Riesling makes it hard for you to be an expert. Very hard. Syrah is kind of similar, like you mentioned, but at least you don’t have the extra complexity of sweetness levels there.

In regards to bottle shape putting people off: I was going to go with a burgundy bottle initially, like Cobb does, to kind of get away from all connotations etc. But then I decided it would be somewhat disingenuous (there is a tradition after all), so reversed on that.

[larry_schaffer]

I dislike the concept of having different shaped bottles for different varieties. I use a claret shaped bottle for everything - including my dry Gewurztraminer. And when I bottle my inaugural pinots in early 2022, I will bottle them in the same shaped bottle.

Cheers

[Matt_K1]

I dislike the concept of having different shaped bottles for different varieties. I use a claret shaped bottle for everything - including my dry Gewurztraminer. And when I bottle my inaugural pinots in early 2022, I will bottle them in the same shaped bottle.

Cheers

I’m starting to feel this way as well. I’ve shifted everything into two bottle types now.

Staying on topic though… Traditional Riesling bottles straight up don’t fit in anything… Shelves, fridges, you name it, they don’t fit right.

[Anthony_C]

As someone with a cellar of mixed rectangle and X-bins, and individual bottle slots: I’m learning to appreciate the Bordeaux bottles for everything. They just stack so much easier.

Riesling bottles fit in my individual bottle slots just fine, but that wall is almost full.

As to the discussion at hand: I like the occasional dry Riesling, but we both prefer spatlese and auslese styles (with some age on them) more. But I see the predicament US producers face: when I find them, the German wines aren’t that expensive and I avoid sweet style Rieslings from the US because the few I’ve had have been way too sweet without enough aromatics and structure. I still try US rieslings occasionally (especially with endorsements from folks here), but it’s not a big priority for stocking the cellar.

[John_Kight]

Isn’t the solution relatively simple? Put it in a Burgundy-style (or Bordeaux-style) bottle and label it as a “White Cuvee” without mentioning Riesling.

[Eric_Michels]

Isn’t the solution relatively simple? Put it in a Burgundy-style (or Bordeaux-style) bottle and label it as a “White Cuvee” without mentioning Riesling.

I came to post the exact same thought. We opened a bottle of Adam’s Riesling tonight based on this thread. I thought it was a nice wine but my wife (who counts Riesling alongside champagne as her favorite wines) turned up her nose as it was not what she thought of as Riesling. I’m with John - while I appreciate the transparency and intent in labeling it Riesling, I think that any problem selling this bottling could be solved by making up a name for it (Project ABC) and letting the wine in the bottle speak for itself. While this would likely require some knowledge of Sabelli-Frisch for someone to purchase Project ABC, it would seem to overcome the “this isn’t what I expected” problem. While all varietals can present in a range of styles, it seems that Riesling presents a particular challenge given its wide range of faces.