Riesling - the struggle is real.

[ChrisJames]

I watched two producers in Oregon who were making great Riesling(IMO) at the time just walk away from making Riesling because they were doing great work and killing themselves to sell it.

In an Oregon Wine History Archive, John House of Ovum mentioned that they made their best Riesling of the 2016 vintage from grapes of a particular older vine vineyard. The next year, without even telling them, the grower grafted the entire thing over to Chardonnay.

[Rodrigo_B]

In an Oregon Wine History Archive, John House of Ovum mentioned that they made their best Riesling of the 2016 vintage from grapes of a particular older vine vineyard. The next year, without even telling them, the grower grafted the entire thing over to Chardonnay.

I get the drive to want to sell your agricultural product for more by switching the varieties, but to not even give a heads up to the winemaker who has been purchasing the grapes prior has got to be pretty demoralising. Been meaning to check out Ovum’s wines. Didn’t know they did an interview with the Linfield University folks. I’ll have to check it out

[K_N_Haque]

Thank for this thoughtful discussion - so much to take in!

I get a very casual feeling that Riesling in Germany is on the uptick. This might have to do with them making their quality improvements and having had their producers get together and unify.

The other day I saw this clip of Saar’s Von Volxem’s grand opening of their new winery/tasting room. I mean, it’s a huge, architectural flashy thing that would almost put Opus One’s building to shame. Must have cost millions and millions to build. Obviously, Roman Niewodniczanski wouldn’t be able to do that had he not had sales that can pay for it (although I do hear he comes from a rich family). Take a look, it’s stunning:

Roman Niewodniczanski is one of the heirs to the Bitburger Brewery fortune. If you can believe Wikipedia, the main brand had 800 Million Euros in sales for last year reported, and that is just one of their holdings. I am not sure where Roman is in the family, but the fact that the new tasting center cost a lot may not say much about how much he earns from his wines…

[mmarcellus]

Meanwhile, I am sorry Adam, but you are indeed swimming upstream through molasses. As others have noted, there just isn’t any ‘geek appeal’ to California Riesling. OTOH, New York’s Finger Lakes have really begun to develop a following. By coincidence, Eric Asimov’s New York Times wine column today was '10 New York State wines to Drink Now. Yes, two of them were Finger Lake Rieslings, both dry. Not cheap ones, at $28 and $37! I haven’t done a poll or seen any statistics, but I can tell you that before COVID, Finger Lakes Riesling was quite common on good NY restaurant wine lists, both in the city and upstate, often by the glass. It also obviously for sale in any good NY wine shop, and not hidden on a dusty bottom shelf.

Wine dot com, not known for their great prices, currently lists 12 bottles of FLX riesling under $20 in the NY warehouse. Though I’m not personally a fan of every one of those producers, all are respectable and included in the list are ones I am a fan of like Wiemer, Frank, Standing Stone (now owned by Wiemer), and Ravines. I’ve also seen FLX rieslings in CA for under $20, including Ravines and Heart & Hand. There are also some good examples from Oregon, and even Idaho. That said, riesling does have a history of success in California, though that history was long ago and is a bit murky since “Riesling” was historically used as a generic label for whites, similar to “Chablis”. And many varietals labeled riesling (e.g. "Gray Riesling, which was Trousseau) were not riesling.

One historical nugget from the 50’s that indicates a regard for riesling in certain circles is an episode of the Western “Have Gun Will Travel”, presumably one of the episodes written by Gene Rodenberry, Paladin had become a fan of a California riesling grower whose vineyards were under threat from (IIRC) an oil drilling operation next door, and Paladin vollunteers to help him. There’s lots of love of riesling in this episode, presumably a feeling the writer shared. As with many episodes of “Have Gone Will Travel” it’s an interesting time capsule, mostly of the 50’s but to a lesser degree, and through a glass darkly, of 19th century California. Maybe somebody today will be moved to write a TV episode depicting a valiant struggle in the 80’s to prevent a great riesling vineyard from being ripped out to be replanted with chardonnay.

Anyway, I do think there will come a time when riesling makes a comeback. But, to paraphrase John Maynard Keynes, the market can continue to hate riesling longer than growers can remain solvent.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Peanut stew? WTF?

Usually an African dish, not sure which exact region. But peanut sauce or soup is the only absolute wine killer I know of. Nothing is good with it.

I’m curious: how do you deal with French onion soup? IMO, there is one, and only one, answer; interested to see if it’s yours.

Young cru Beaujolais. Period.

[Alan_Rath]

Adam, what’s the price point on your Riesling? Because I drink a fair number of pretty affordable Austrian Rieslings in the $20-30 range, and the top tier wines can be had for $40-70 (leaving out some “cult” wines that are stupidly overpriced because they are instagram darlings).

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Usually an African dish, not sure which exact region. But peanut sauce or soup is the only absolute wine killer I know of. Nothing is good with it.

I’m curious: how do you deal with French onion soup? IMO, there is one, and only one, answer; interested to see if it’s yours.

Young cru Beaujolais. Period.

Bzzzzt! Sorry. That is not the answer we were looking for. dry sherry But I’m still gonna give it a go next time I fix the soup.


… back to Riesling: I think it almost works with FOS, but, ultimately, the soup always remains “too much FOS” for it to be a truly successful pairing.

more broadly: I’ve not yet had a U.S. Riesling that gives me any sense whatsoever that U.S. Riesling is, or even can be, remotely on the same qualitative level as similarly-priced offerings from Germany and France.

[Siun_O_Connell]

I find most folks I know are startled that Riesling can be grown in the US - outside of NY which they assume is hyper sweet not so good. I surprise them with Bedrock, Paetra and Desire Lines … and now will add Adam’s which just arrived. The Asian fine dining spots here tend to have good Riesling lists - I still miss the Embeya list from when my daughter cooked there - so perhaps a joint marketing project of some of the very good (Berserker!) Rieslings to a select list of such spots to encourage adding some domestics would pay off.

[ChrisJames]

In an Oregon Wine History Archive, John House of Ovum mentioned that they made their best Riesling of the 2016 vintage from grapes of a particular older vine vineyard. The next year, without even telling them, the grower grafted the entire thing over to Chardonnay.

I get the drive to want to sell your agricultural product for more by switching the varieties, but to not even give a heads up to the winemaker who has been purchasing the grapes prior has got to be pretty demoralising. Been meaning to check out Ovum’s wines. Didn’t know they did an interview with the Linfield University folks. I’ll have to check it out

JOHN AND KSENIJA HOUSE

I found it to be one of the more interesting interviews of the series. John is clearly emotionally pained about losing that vineyard.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

I’m curious: how do you deal with French onion soup? IMO, there is one, and only one, answer; interested to see if it’s yours.

Young cru Beaujolais. Period.

Bzzzzt! Sorry. That is not the answer we were looking for. dry sherry But I’m still gonna give it a go next time I fix the soup.


… back to Riesling: I think it almost works with FOS, but, ultimately, the soup always remains “too much FOS” for it to be a truly successful pairing.

more broadly: I’ve not yet had a U.S. Riesling that gives me any sense whatsoever that U.S. Riesling is, or even can be, remotely on the same qualitative level as similarly-priced offerings from Germany and France.

Nope. Dry sherry is the answer to a lot of soups, especially if you are English and can’t think outside the box. Soup often wants nothing at all- liquid on liquid. But French onion soup is half casserole, andbcomes from a particular place, where it’s paired with a particular wine, and it works.

[Dan_Kravitz]

My go-to is young lightweight Bourgogne Rouge… not so different in style maybe than Sarah’s suggestion.

I admit to having a Bad Attitude towards Gamays… except for gnarly Moulin-A-Vent

Dan Kravitz

[Todd_Hamina]

Todd Hamina - you just had a Riesling blowout - what has been your experience over the years or in your tasting room?

I was pretty much a restaurant brand. This said if you ever want to make something that sells slow, Riesling fits the bill. In the tasting room I pretty much always showed single vineyard Pinot noir, or Caroline our top wine (also a single vineyard).

I made Riesling in 09, 10 and 11 from Amity vineyards. In 2012 we switched to Sunnyside vineyards and I made about 180 cases of it. Eleven years later there’s now 16 cases left, so blowing it out. It’s good and pushy. I always felt that I was making a wine that would last forever, we’ll see.

[Antonio_G]

Hey my friend , it could be worse - I make a dry domestic Gewurztraminer . . .

I would love to try that. Was there last weekend, you guys were humming!

[Antonio_G]

The conversions I’ve made, onto Riesling, from nonbelievers have been with the right food pairing, and usually, I’ve been able to hook them on the 2nd round. Most learn to appreciate and some have become rabid fans. Its also palate maturity IMO, not everyone has it.

But this is why, prices for Rieslings are mostly under the market, which I continue to appreciate.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

My go-to is young lightweight Bourgogne Rouge… not so different in style maybe than Sarah’s suggestion.

I admit to having a Bad Attitude towards Gamays… except for gnarly Moulin-A-Vent

Dan Kravitz

I will definitely be giving both of your suggestions a Go … I can’t recall if I’ve previously tried either, so it will be a blank slate. If successfully, either would represent the first non-terrible red wine pairing I’ve had with the dish; my experience has always been the onions overpower the wine.

[Otto_Forsberg]

To my ears, anything dry sounds like a catastrophe, because soups are difficult with wine to begin with (you normally need lots of body from the wine not to be overwhelmed by the soup in the first place) and as the caramelized onions make the onion soup somewhat sweet, that insta-kills almost anything fruit-related from a dry wine. I haven’t tasted Bojo or light Burgundy, so I can’t comment whether they’ll work or not, but my intuition is setting off all kinds of alarms.

I’d go with something off-dry to medium sweet that could stand up to the inherent sweetness of the soup. If somebody wants something dry, I’d say dry Sherries and Madeiras are quite reliable, because they don’t retain any primary fruit flavors that could get obliterated by the sweetness, just aldehydes (Sherry) or madeirized/oxidized characteristics (Madeira) which don’t seem to mind sweetness. On my palate other dry wines either get stripped most of their fruit or just turn unpleasantly bitter when contrasted with sweetness.

[R_Scott_Hughes]

Branding, branding, branding. Relabel it as Dry Rheinriesling, or Johannisberger and you will eliminate the buyer’s prejudice re: Riesling. Easier to educate an unbiased consumer.

[larry_schaffer]

Hey my friend , it could be worse - I make a dry domestic Gewurztraminer . . .

I would love to try that. Was there last weekend, you guys were humming!

Antonio,

Just let me know the next time you are around so that I can be sure to be there. I am currently pouring this in my tasting room - and the reception has been great. It does require quite a bit of ‘hand holding’ - folks smell it and are immediately drawn to a ‘dessert wine’ but I tell them in advance what to expect. Is it selling as quickly as my Roses? No, and I don’t expect it to - but it is selling faster than my last release of this wine, which was back in 2014 (after that vintage, it was grafted over to Chardonnay - same story as above - but I can’t fault the vineyard owner).

Just a little fact - there were only 75 tons of Gewurztraminer crushed in District 8 in CA in 2020 - that’s a region that encompasses Ventura, Santa Barbara and SLO Counties. So not only is it a tough sell but there’s not much of it grown here anymore at all . . .

Cheers

[Markus_S]

Oh where do I even begin??

First off, we are NOT Australia. This is America. Love it or leave it as some people say.

Second, as a producer, you grow riesling because you love it, not so you can sell it. Enough of that nonsense.

Third, riesling is only drunk by the zealots and tourists. Those people in wealthy areas probably think they know better and will
avoid it like plagues. Never sell riesling to rich folk!

[Robert.A.Jr]

Hey my friend , it could be worse - I make a dry domestic Gewurztraminer . . .

Hysterical!

Reminds me, my wife did a girl’s trip to Napa, which included Williams Selyem. My wife brought back the Gewwurtraminer and a Zin. I’m like WTF, did you know they allegedly make a decent Pinot?