Hi
Is it as simple as a residual sugar level being low makes a wine trocken or is there more to it ?
If so what level is it
Thanks
Alan
Trocken means dry but the level of RS depends on the wine and on the region, e.g. Mosel vs Rheingau.
As I recall, the reqād RS was up to 0.9% RS for higher acid wines, but for lower acid wines, itās more like around 0.4% RS. Generally the acidity has to be within 2 points of the RS, so if your RS is up to 0.9%, the wine has to have at least 7 g/L acidity.
So like all things German, itās not quite as simple as stating a single number.
Thanks Greg! I also appreciate the info.
Ok, I am not in any way saying anyone is right or wrong but I also asked Robert Panzer the Alsace wine guy and this was his reply
Designation English translation Maximum sugar level allowed
Low acid wines Medium acid wines High acid wines
trocken dry 4 grams per liter acid level in grams per liter + 2 9 grams per liter
The technical definition of trocken in Germany, cut and paste from wikipedia
So, as these rieslings all have between 6-10! grams of acidity, as long as they have less than 9 grams of sugar, they would all be considered trocken in germany. Only the Sommerberg '13 flirts with the line (6 grams acid +2= 8 grams residual is trocken, whereas the wine has 10 grams), the others are decidedly on the trocken spectrum. (2-6 grams sugar for 6-10 grams of acid).
Im not sure if the levels are different or if the decimal points on the grams are getting out of whack
Either way im still confused, I get that acid to sugar ratio can play a part but is there a definitive set of numbers please
From my champagne knowledge the 6 grams per liter of sugar sounds like a dosage for a demi sec
Not sure how else to explain it but to be classified as Trocken, the wine canāt have more than 9 g of residual sugar per liter, and canāt have more than 7 if the wine does not have at least enough acid to be within two g/L of the RS. So a wine has to have at least 7 g/L acid if it has 9 g/L RS, but that doesnāt mean it canāt have more acid.
And a wine can have less than 9 g/L RS too.
So some Trocken wines taste sweeter than others.
Ok so 0.9% RS is the same as 9 grams RS ?
If so that explains where im getting confused
Sorry about that. Itās 9 grams per liter.
The measurement usually assumes liters. But good point. Thatās not necessarily clear.
Regulations now are the same in the entire EU:
up to 7g/l itĀ“s dry, 7-9 g/l the acidity has to be no more than 2 points below.
IMHO a wine really tastes dry if below 5g/l, better 4g/l ā¦ otherwise itĀ“s kind of āsweet-sourā ā¦ (sure it depends ā¦)
In our region (STYRIA) most wines are at 4g/l or below ā¦ in the Wachau more and more are at 6, 7 or more g/l ā¦
there is more to it
page 9
The āmoreā for me sums up as:
there are wines labelled ātrockenā - and they donĀ“t taste like that.
Nothing against wines with (noticable) residual sugar - I simply want to know about it.
When a wine labelled as ātrockenā has close to 9g RS and an acidity of 7 - it simply doesnĀ“t taste dry for me.
It still may be perfectly balanced for other tasters, but most of the times I taste the sugar though - and it embaresses me ā¦
I think it was a mistake to simply raise the legal limit of RS up to 9g/l ā¦
(to be clear: everybody is entitled to make his wine to his likeness or to market necessities ā¦ but it should be indicated for the consumer ā¦
Well Austrian Dry Rieslings (from Wachau, Krems, Kamptal) almost never let you down. Allways dry and deliciuos
Especially when the weather is hot ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Except that 6 g/l is in the lower middle range of Brut, which goes from 0-15 g/l. I think 6 g/l still qualifies for extra-brut, though at the very top end.
I think it was a mistake to simply raise the legal limit of RS up to 9g/l ā¦
I agree. Thatās really a lot of sugar. Yes, it can be balanced by the acid very nicely, and I like wines with even much more sugar, but when Iām looking for something dry Iād really prefer it to be dry and at that level, while it may meet the legal requirement it doesnāt quite meet the palate requirement.
The 9 g/l requirement was the standard maximum for trocken in Germany. That was not a change for the greatest Rieslings in the world. 
Since SOME OF THE greatest dry Rieslings in the world come from Austria, it was a change indeed ā¦ ![[highfive.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/d/db21b9263a9105e51f6f8b11e61dd4de095611f9.gif "highfive"){kind=small}
I thought that would get a rise out of you.
Do many top Austrian producers even play at the higher end of the spectrum? Isnāt it really a change without any meaningful effect for Austrian wine?
I would just add that, in addition to the acid level affecting the perception of sweetness, alcohol can as well. So a 14% riesling can come across as sweet even if the RS is very low.
It depends, but I would estimate that the RS levels in the Wachau and neighbourhood nowadays are more at 6 or 7 gr/l (sometimes higher) than at 4 ā¦
this together with alc levels of 14% and above (for the Smaragds) is only possible when Botrytis plays a role to a certain degree ā¦ and Botrytis isnĀ“t the best for really serious aging ā¦
(but since most wines are often emptied by tha case very young, maybe less a problem ā¦)
I had a discussion of a related issue about 8 years ago with Jean Trimbach. I thought one of his wines tasted sweet and he said that there was less than 2 gms/liter, but that my mind sensed sweetness because of the fruitiness of the wine. According to him, the normal human taste threshold for sugar is 3 gms per liter, give or take a tiny bit for different people. Since then, I have often checked or asked about the RS level when I perceived sweetness but thought the wine was vinified to bone dry. 3 gms per liter seems about right. I had not, until this thread, considered the relationship between acidity and sugar level. Is the term ātrockenā just then a made up term that has meaning only in the context of its own definition, or is a wine with 9gms/liter of sugar going to taste ādryā if it has at least 7 gms / liter of acid. And what kind of acid? Different molecules have different weights, and for example one gram of hydrochloric (HCl) will change the ph more than one gram of malic acid (C4H6O5). Oh my head hurts. I think Iāll just drink the stuff and not worry about it.
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The wine will always have the last word. Tonight I am drinking a 2002 Hirsch Riesling Gaisberg āAprilā that tastes totally dry, but still has fruit. 13 years under screw cap by the way.