Red Burgundy for a California Pinot Lover

I would start at something like a Bachelet-Monnot 1er Maranges and work my way up to a Mugnier Marechale

Could really throw out specifics here, but there’s just so many. Silkier and sexier expressions from Volnay, or Corton, or Beaune, or Chambolle, or Vosnee-Romanee. I know you were looking for mature expressions, but why? Are you really letting that Lato or Aubert PN really age all that long? Go with the Delarche Pernand-Vergelesses ile-de-vergelesses 1er cru - ripe and rich, a stone’s throw for Corton, and a reasonable price. Heck, go Corton (it’s an enormous GC), and someone has to drink the reasonably good $150-200 bottles of Grand Cru. Pousse d’Or is also tremendously accessible as a producer, and a joy to drink. I’m not sure how much the wines of 2010-2015 are going to ā€œwowā€ your palate at your price levels. Burgundy, more and more are just as enjoyable in their youth for the mid tier.

You know, that’s really cool of you to loop back and engage with the ideas. A lot of times, someone asks this kind of question and then just dissappears.

And you’re smart to try to find out what it’s all about. Enjoy your journey.

Your approach is sound (you are cutting back on $100-300 cab purchases and want to try a couple of Burgs, perhaps on the riper side, to see if you like it. You had a couple bad experiences in Oregon, but that doesn’t mean you won’t find what you like in Burgundy. I haven’t liked every Oregon I have tried, and have found some to be acidic / out of balance, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like Burgundy).

Some ideas:
Definitely snag a 2009. 2009 was a warm vintage AND in its early drinking window. Its hard to backfill, but its not hard at your price point. So you are looking at $200+ for backfilling a 1er Cru in the US. I like the 2009 Chevillon idea and 2009 Les Saint George is in California for $249 (not cheap, but this is a one time for you, right?). R Squared in NY has the Caille for $189, another option. European Wine Resouces (Cali) has Vaucrain for $225. LSG is the best wine of the 3, but you can get a good sense from either of them.

To contrast with the more ā€˜aged’ wine, I would go with a young 2018 or 2019 as folks suggested. You can go a little cheaper here. ā€œLafarge killed it in 2018ā€ is right… you can buy a 2018 Aigrots or Vendange Selectionnees for < $100, to pair with your more expensive 2009 purchase. Or try a Gevrey Chambertin from 2018 from a good producer like Duroche. (I like the idea of a Chevillon, Lafarge and Duroche… covers multiple appellations). 2019 is a great option (and I own 2019 in size). Maybe a 2019 Bruno Clavelier Chambolle La Combe d’Orveau ($200), Coquard Loison-Fleurot Clos de la Roche ($200), Faiveley (Cazetiers in 2020 could be a good option at $150 - 2020 another warm year). Francois Fueillet Clos de la Roche/Combottes ($200 or so). Or JM Marc Millot Suchots (< $200).

At end of day, you will need to ā€œinvestā€ in 3 bottles to see if Burgundy could be your thing (hence Mark Golodetz’s savvy suggestion of ā€œbuyingā€ into a tasting instead of spending that money). If were me… I’d probably do one of the 2009s (probably Vaucrain or LSG given your Cali-leaning palate), 2020 Faiveley Cazetiers (for a darker burgundy expression as I find Burgundy in 2020 to be more blackfruited) and then either a 2018 Lafarge or a red fruited 2019 (I haven’t tried the Bruno Clavelier, but there are some good notes there, it gets you a ā€œChambolleā€ to compare to the more meaty Gevrey and more burly Nuit-Saint-George). That’s probably like $600 or something right here. But those would all be 3 very fun bottles of wine (that I also all own myself). I’d probably drink them young / old / young. Start with the Faiveley, then do the 2009, then come back to Bruno Clavelier. And hopefully that will give a sense of what age could do to the young wines as well (bring out more of the earthy / savory notes with time).

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Thanks Chris. Just seems like good manners to me, especially if others are taking the time to respond. Also this is the first time I’ve started a thread that actually amounted to something. :slight_smile:

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Berserkers gonna Berserk! A question with the word Burgundy in it triggers a thread that will go on until 2025! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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Original poster.

Some of my favorite producers are Rossignol-Trapet (more powerful wines), Hudelot-Noellat, Henri Jouan (very seductive wines), Arlaud, Joseph Drouhin (family that owns Domaine Drouhin in Oregon), Chandon de Briailles, Lafarge, Bouchard and Clerget. Hard to find, but the reds from Ramonet (one of the greatest white one producers in Burgundy) are absolutely fascinating and are wines that could not be made anywhere but Burgundy.

ā€œBut, California Pinot IMHO totally and completely lacks seduction and elegance. Buy Burgundy to try to find seduction and elegance. If you don’t like it, you can go back to California Pinot, but at least you will have tried REAL Burgundy.ā€

Agree with this - the best Cali and Oregon Pinots I have consumed have nowhere the charm and elegance of the best Burgs - it is just a different product even if the grapes are the same. A bit like asking for Northern Rhone wines that emulate Aussie Shiraz.

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The CA pinots you mentioned don’t have much in common with Burgundy. I agree with the recommendation to test out Oregon as a gateway before trying Burgundy and either deciding you don’t like it or spending too much money on ones you’ll regret later. Alternatively, go back to cabernet for a bit and decide if you like Bordeaux, which is both much cheaper and much easier to get a handle on than Burgundy. If you don’t end up preferring Bordeaux to CA cabernets, you won’t end up preferring Burgundy to CA pinots, either.

Given climate change, I suspect Shan’s advice is perfect to set future expectations. Try a good 2002 for age (or 2009 if you can’t find a 2002, but they are still mostly primary), and a 2019 to see what contemporary, good, young burgundy tastes like. In both cases, don’t gamble on a producer you haven’t seen vouched for on Berserkers, you’ll lose.

Howard (and I) might say don’t look to burgundy for California styled Pinot, but I sadly think burgundy is being forced in that direction.

The best solution would be the Time Machine, but rumor has it that was assigned a different mission altogether.

I sort of see the title of this thread like ā€œmeat for a vegan.ā€

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Pousse d’or is a good recommendation, I forgot about them. I find them a bit simple but they are reliably deep, fruity, and well composed

By the way, I never figured this thread would generate 50 responses. I was also surprised to see there really was no previous thread with a similar topic. I figured the most common response would be ā€œDude, this topic has been covered 100 times. Try using the search.ā€

Here is a different thread in a similar vein except it is the burgophile looking for Cali Pinot.

I think you may have identified someone who Michael can trade a few bottles with :slight_smile:.

Thanks. I’ll review that thread. And 115 responses, so I guess this one has a ways to go.

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When I decided to buy some Oregon Pinots, I asked the board for recommendations for a wine that a Burgundy drinker would like.

It is how I got to Goodfellow, one of my more rewarding collecting experiences. Marcus makes wines which have a certain Burgundian feel, although blind I have yet to confuse the two. That being said, he does make bloody good wines, Highly recommended.

As for Burgundy, Jouan in 2015 made quite forward wines. The Clos Sorbe is easily within your price range, but the old vine Clos Saint Denis is well worth going slightly above budget.

I think a ā€œmature high quality Burgā€ is going to be way more than $100 - $250 dollars. Having said that, I do think you can get some really great Burgundy for that price, that have some age, are drinking well now, but not what I would consider ā€œmatureā€; for me a mature Burgundy is showing secondary and tertiary notes on the nose and the palate, I generally don’t consider Burgundy mature until it’s 25+ years old.

So having said that, I’d suggest that you seek out and watch the weekly auctions on winebid.com, they have some great older bottles, a wide selection of producers, and vintages. Some from the auction ending this week are:

1985 Prince Florent de Merode Corton MarƩchaudes $210+ - A great vintage, a great vineyard (now managed by DRC), and a sub-par producer.

1998 Louis Jadot Gevrey-Chambertin Clos St. Jacques $130+ - An off vintage, great vineyard, and consistent producer that I consider to be mid-tier in some of their wines, and others are benchmarks.