Recommend a Burgundian Burgundy

WINE TALK
41

Try '90, '91, '93 or '99 Jadot Musigny (among others) and if those don’t deliver the “Burgundy Experience” to you then you don’t know what the “Burgundy Experience” is about.

42

Thanks, Kevin. Beltramos has the first for $53 and Vintages has the other for $49

K&L has 2007 Joseph Drouhin Chambolle-Musigny for $57

JJ Buckley has 2006 Chandon de Briailles Pernand Vergelesses les Vergelesses for $35

Beltramos also has 2006 Bachelet-Monnot Maranges Rouge ‘La Fussiere’ for $30
and 2006 Denis Bachelet Cote de Nuits Villages for $37

Can’t see anything locally from Chevillon or Patrice Rion in wine-searcher
(my pro subscription is currently lapsed due to lack of use)

As I said, I’m not looking for an epiphany, I’m just looking for a benchmark, an idea of what “Burgundian” means.
I realise that Burgundy is the size of Lake Tanganyika and that there’s probably no simple answer.
Furthermore, in this economy and with 2 kids there’s no way I’m laying down $100+ for a bottle of anything.

43

Which is why, Serge, I recommended the Savignys that others had mentioned too - in a good vintage wines from Ecard, Bize, Pavelot or another good Savigny producer will give you a bead on what Burgundy can be like. Spend about $200, get 3-4 wines, perhaps one from each of those producers, and you’ll have a bead on decent Burg. If you already have a good idea of what domestic Pinot is like, you can see the differences. Of course, you could do 4 burgs and 4 styles of good domestic Pinot and taste too.

PS: dave - the Chandon des Briailles should be a good way to get a handle. Skip the Drouhin - I always feel their village wines under achieve compared to the simple Cote du Nuits Village or the premier crus.

44

Presumably ‘Vergelesses les Vergelesses’ and ‘Ile des Vergelesses’ are not the same thing, so should I go with the former or pay the extra for the latter?

45

I’d like to do that too, however I’m somewhat limited in terms of when such tastings take place and whether I can get the time off to attend. :frowning: Picking up a bottle and taking it home is a much simpler prospect.

46

Dave,

the Ile is actually a different part of the vineyard and is slightly better. For what you’re wanting, I don’t think I’d worry too much about the difference.

savignys also age well - I’ve had 93s that are in their prime - so if you can find a couple at reasonable prices, try them.

Oh and some Cali wines have very similar characteristics. Older Williams Selyem wines especially. To me, Burgundian implies a transparency of fruit, a balance of delicacy and power, very pure aromatics and an indifference to palate density or extraction to the degree that those are about a sense of bigness.

BTW, I heartily second the Chevillon recommendations above - they’re very pure Burg, but very different from the Savigny and Pernand wines. Other communes to explore are Marsannay, Monthelie Aloxe-Corton and Santenay.

47

Different vineyards is what I was told. My experience is with the “Ile des Vergelesses”.

48

Dave,
I agree with Rick’s advice on this. I would pay up for the “Ile des Vergelesses” since you are looking for a more complete Burgundian experience.
Between the Bize and the Chandon des Briailles, the Bize has a bit more power (though it is not “powerful” by any stretch) while the CdBriailles is lighter and more subtle.

To really get the full “Burgundy” experience, I don’t think you need to pay >$100, but you probably do need to cellar the wines (10-20 yrs) in order to drink them at their apogee.

49

A little learning is a dangerous thing. I checked His Bobness’s vintage guide for Burgundy and googled “Vergelesses”.
wine-searcher shows a retailer in the city who has a “1995 Domaine Rapet Pernand-Vergelesses” for $40.
Is this a good idea?

Serge: Thanks for the offer, but I can’t see my better half approving.

50

Dave, I like the various suggestions that you try the wines from Savigny-les-Beaune that people mentioned - I think any of of the 06s from Simon Bize would fit the bill. Be aware that the style of wines from Savigny are a bit lighter in style in the Burgundy spectrum. If you want something a bit more muscular, wines from Gevrey-Chambertin would fit the bill nicely, as would a Bachelet bourgogne as someone suggested earlier (Bachelet sources much of the juice for the bourgogne from its holdings in Gevrey, I believe). I would avoid the 07 burgundies, the ones I’ve had have been really tart - I like the balance of red burgundies from 06, 05, 04 better.

51

Dave, it can be really confusing.

The BIGGER the area named on the label, the LOWER the quality of the wine.

Vergelesses is a vineyard, Pernand-Vergelesses is a commune (or town) so they can use grapes from all over the place within that designation.

Pernand-Vergelesses - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Many towns in Burgundy have appended the name of the best vineyard to the name of the town. For example, Vosne-Romanée.

Try to get your hands on a wine atlas, or look for good maps in books. Where the grapes are grown is really critical.

52

Wow, Serge.

That reminds me, I’ve always wondered about the difference between La Tache and J.F. Mugnier Amoureuses, but I don’t have a bottle of either. What to do… what to do…

53

You’re not kidding.

54

Well done, Serge. Let me know next time you’re in NY. Except can we make it a shot of Stoli (or even Korean soju!) and then move on to some good wines?

55

Dave – to add to the complexity, sometimes the “commune” wines are quite good. I was one of several people who suggested looking for Savigny, that is another commune wine which tends to sell for lower prices than the wines of some of it’s neighboring towns. In fact Vosne-Romanee wines, and Gevrey-Chambertin, are often quite good although commune wines. The prices reflect that, everyone expects them to be good. The Pernand-Vergelesses wine you found was quite likely pretty good as well, it is just that wine from the Vergelesses vineyard is available for nearly the same price and it would probably be more interesting to get the focus and terroir of the actual vineyard wine instead of having grapes grown all around the vineyard but mostly outside of it. Probably entirely outside.

And I have been telling you to just buy some Bourgogne from a good producer, that is the largest possible area, all of Burgundy. A given producer will probably get most of his grapes from a certain area of Burgundy, or will have grown some of the grapes, and thus the difference between one Bourgogne and another lies in the “brand” or the producer named on the label.

To maximize the complexity, occasionally you can pay big bucks for wine from a famous vineyard, and the stuff is damn near undrinkable. It hailed, or rotted, or the winemaker did something stupid. Burgundy fetches such high prices that I think it’s hard for a producer to just suck it up and declassify the wine, so as far as I can tell, they just put the fancy label on the bottles and sell them at the usual price when that happens. Makes life interesting for the consumer…

56

Rapet has never really tickled my fancy, and I feel it might be a bit enthusiastic to risk money on a fifteen year old Pernand-Vergelesses village wine; you don’t know how it has been stored and, if we are honest, Pernand doesn’t produce the most compelling and age-worthy of wines at the village level.

However, Chandon de Briailles are obviously the best producer in the village and they can make some really lovely wines. I had a Pernand-Vergelesses Premier Cru Ile des Vergelesses 2005 from them a a week agoand it was a beautiful expression of Burgundy which I was totally smitten by. It was also such a hilarious bargain for a wine of that quality I’m going to buy more as soon as I have the cash. I’ve had a small taste of the 2006 as well and if you want to see what Burgundy is like and compare it to Pinots from around the world this will serve you very well. Definitely go for the Ile des Vergelesses-flavour 1er cru, it is well worth the extra. $35 is a really keen price for that wine, you should snap up a bottle. I hope you enjoy it!

Cheers,
David.

57

Hi David,

I have to disagree, I sometimes find that wines from the “lesser” appelations age just as beautifully as those from the Grands Crus. I have had Savignys going back to 1949 and they were absolutely lovely and still representative of their villages, and have had some Pernands going back to the 1970s (admittedly not that far) that were still quite nice. So, provenance aside, and depending on producer, wines from these areas can still be good even 15 years on.
Cheers! [berserker.gif]

58

Oh I have had some marvellous old Burgundies from some of the less flash villages. However, I feel buying such wines can be a bit of a lottery, you risk disappointment with some bottles unless they are fresh from the producers cellar.

Also, I think if Dave wants to try a red Burgundy to compare with the wines he is more familiar with then young wines would provide the most reasonable comparison. All very well and good if that Rapet was in top nick and gave pleasure, but its maturity would probably confuse the issue when tasting it.

Finally, I think that the Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Ile des Vergelesses 2006 from CdB is a really lovely, very Burgundian wine at a satisfyingly keen price. If Dave finds he likes it more could safely be purchased as it is good enough to merit the compliment of being put in the cellar for a while to visit again when mature. This quality in a $35 wine? Not to be sniffed at.

Cheers,
David.

59

Agreed, in context of the question asked, I concur.

60

You don’t drink Russian vodka? No Zyr or Jewel of Russia even? Somehow I knew I was gonna get flak for Stoli, but Absolut and Grey Goose? I thought those brands were for poseurs who choose vodka from magazine ads. If you’ve never had soju, we need to correct that, fast.

Yeah, I’ll have us covered on Korean places - I married into that mob. Some of the places in Fort Lee are pretty good though, esp. the tofu place out there.

I believe the Mexico City story - the best vindaloo I’ve ever had was in Adelaide, Australia of all places!