Question..2005 Bizot Vosne-Romanee VV

[Will_F]

Arnoux '19 has never been below $100. I suppose it would have been possible to find the '18 for less than $100, but it would not have been easy to get and there would not have been a whole lot of it. Before that, I agree that the wines were relatively easy to find at those prices. But while I love the wines from '15, '16 and '17, I think that the last two vintages where the prices have skyrocketed are really sort of different things altogether. That doesn’t mean I would pay $1000 for the village wines, but there is a fairly straightforward explanation for the pricing jump in the last two years.

I bought 6 cases of 2018 Arnoux village wine for between 54-75 Euros from two retailers in late 2020/early 2021. I believe they offered Latricieres at the same time and it was just over 300 euros a btl.

Going through my emails

lieu dit and non lieu dit village wines from arnoux in 2018 were sub 100 stateside (65-70 for NSG and almost 100 for chambolle/vosne). But that was on release - late 2020. Latricieres was in the 300 range, clos vougeot was sub 300. I remember the local text group I’m in and we were all discussing how 18 reignot jumped in price to $850+ from the 17. I got offered an assortment of 18 arnoux from a fair number of retailers on the west coast. I tasted through the 18s across the pond and thought they were nice wines so grabbed some, but not at the number I should have apparently LOL.

Yep and I remember when Reignots was more expensive than RSV for the first time and we thought it was mistake!

[Greg_K]

same people propelling Arnoux Nuits village to $1k a btl and latricieres chambertin to 3.5k

I think there are differences here; Arnoux has been quite a bit about aggressive marketing and publicity - Charles is very visible, wins awards, goes to galas, etc. Whereas I wouldn’t recognize Jean-Yves if he walked past me in Beaune holding a bottle of Bizot. It’s true both are buzzy, but sometimes the market picks wines it loves for various reasons; Ente is another great example - small production for unhallowed terroir with wines that were never particularly beloved by critics. Also, the grand cru productions on the Arnoux wines are not large - I suspect we get somewhat lulled into a sense of quantity by DRC given how big their monopoles are.

Also, I don’t remotely mean this as an indictment of Charles - he makes great wines and, frankly, this trail has been blazed far more aggressively by predecessors like Louis-Michel (NFTs anyone?).

Couldn’t agree more, but the jump in price the last 6 months has been well after the 18s were released and reviewed. Using different avenues to sell his wines has made them much more expensive and my guess is he is getting much more money from Corney and Crurated than he did for previous vintages through the en premier system of distribution.

Oh, I completely agree the price increase on the Arnoux-Lachaux wines has been absolutely precipitous, I just think in this case it has been management and marketing as much as somewhat random market forces, a la Bizot. I also know he’s getting more money directly, which is never something to complain about for producers who make really good wine.

[A_Gillette]

Looks like chambers street wines sold 2018 vosne for $160. Morrell was the same.

[L_ZHU]

same people propelling Arnoux Nuits village to $1k a btl and latricieres chambertin to 3.5k

I think there are differences here; Arnoux has been quite a bit about aggressive marketing and publicity - Charles is very visible, wins awards, goes to galas, etc. Whereas I wouldn’t recognize Jean-Yves if he walked past me in Beaune holding a bottle of Bizot. It’s true both are buzzy, but sometimes the market picks wines it loves for various reasons; Ente is another great example - small production for unhallowed terroir with wines that were never particularly beloved by critics. Also, the grand cru productions on the Arnoux wines are not large - I suspect we get somewhat lulled into a sense of quantity by DRC given how big their monopoles are.

Also, I don’t remotely mean this as an indictment of Charles - he makes great wines and, frankly, this trail has been blazed far more aggressively by predecessors like Louis-Michel (NFTs anyone?).

Couldn’t agree more, but the jump in price the last 6 months has been well after the 18s were released and reviewed. Using different avenues to sell his wines has made them much more expensive and my guess is he is getting much more money from Corney and Crurated than he did for previous vintages through the en premier system of distribution.

I think the bulk of his sales are probably still through traditional channels, although I did snag a case of his 2019 wines from Crurated

the word I’ve heard from a few Asian and European sources is that demand has come from Asia and China which has cleaned up supply for reason I’m not clear on, but my best guess is the apparent connection with Lalou Bize Leroy

his removal from the EP system will further exacerbate issues

[RyanC]

The thing with these culty wines is they’ve vanished entirely from the U.S. market. It’s impossible to find Arnoux/Bizot/Leroy/d’Auvenay (probably the four cultiest producers IMO; maybe you could add Comte Liger Belair) at any price in the U.S. market. Not that I’m seeking them out–I’m not–but I can’t recall that happening with other Burg producers to quite the same extent, or really with any other producers anywhere (perhaps w/ some micro-production Champagnes). It’s making DRC pricing seem reasonable.

Someone above mentioned Arnaud Ente. That’s one I really don’t get. I haven’t had Bizot or 18/19 Arnoux (I’ve had a fair bit through '17), but I’ve had a nontrivial amount of Leroy (before it went truly insane) and it’s indeed wonderful. I’ve had a fair bit of Ente–largely in Europe for cheap–and I just can’t fathom why it costs what it does. I don’t even like it that much. There’s so much White Burg for low three-digits or even two digits that I vastly prefer.

[CFu]

Looks like chambers street wines sold 2018 vosne for $160. Morrell was the same.

I’m staring at a local wine offer in southern California for the 2018 when it was released, Vosne was $90. Chambolle same. but nsg was 65

[Will_F]

Looks like chambers street wines sold 2018 vosne for $160. Morrell was the same.

I’m staring at a local wine offer in southern California for the 2018 when it was released, Vosne was $90. Chambolle same. NSG was $65.

Those two retailers not exactly known for their great deals!

[A_Gillette]

Looks like chambers street wines sold 2018 vosne for $160. Morrell was the same.

I’m staring at a local wine offer in southern California for the 2018 when it was released, Vosne was $90. Chambolle same. NSG was $65.

That makes sense. The C&B price was 390 pounds per 6 pack of the vosne and 290 for the NSG, I think. But it would have been very difficult to get 6 and likely impossible to get more than 6.

[Ethan_Abraham]

The thing with these culty wines is they’ve vanished entirely from the U.S. market. It’s impossible to find Arnoux/Bizot/Leroy/d’Auvenay (probably the four cultiest producers IMO; maybe you could add Comte Liger Belair) at any price in the U.S. market. Not that I’m seeking them out–I’m not–but I can’t recall that happening with other Burg producers to quite the same extent, or really with any other producers anywhere (perhaps w/ some micro-production Champagnes). It’s making DRC pricing seem reasonable.

Someone above mentioned Arnaud Ente. That’s one I really don’t get. I haven’t had Bizot or 18/19 Arnoux (I’ve had a fair bit through '17), but I’ve had a nontrivial amount of Leroy (before it went truly insane) and it’s indeed wonderful. I’ve had a fair bit of Ente–largely in Europe for cheap–and I just can’t fathom why it costs what it does. I don’t even like it that much. There’s so much White Burg for low three-digits or even two digits that I vastly prefer.

I’m not a buyer but I have seen plenty of fairly public email blasts whenever Leroy does a release. Probably helps that they are released basically at “market” price.

[Peter_Chiu]

Friends,

Had the Bizot in La Petite Auberge. A rich friend was with me and he insisted…Modest as I am I accepted the generous offer. Far too expensive for what it is. Some domaines really overplay the game. Would never buy there. Surely not any better than G NOELLAT, MILLOT, Th LIGER BELAIR or many other domaines that sell at more or less fair prices. BIZOT think they are LEROY or DRC or at least they pretend to…
( rep
SINCERELY JOHAN

First of all I am surprised that there was not many threads here about Bizot ( I maybe wrong, if I do, please correct me).

Hi Johan…interesting comments. Bizot…does not need to think …they are Leroy and/or DRC. Bizot is the new Domaine Leroy and DRC in the South-East Asia red Burgundy market. Due to it tiny production ( unlike Leroy and DRC ) it is not difficult for a few extra-rich burgundy wine lovers in China to corner the Bizot market.

It is happening to Arnoux…in the last …one to two year.

We have an importer of Bizot wines inn Quebec, Canada and I was lucky to try them. It is 100% whole clustered and 100% new oak.

If you like them - May God Bless You. If you do not like them - you are lucky.

Here is someone who described his experience with a Bizot wine :

*Bizot - disproportionate wine-making artifice thrown at what are effectively non-terroirs which then results in impossible to find, insanely expensive wines. The perfect example of what is not a unicorn, rarity, and quality are truly separate dimensions

[Greg_K]

The thing with these culty wines is they’ve vanished entirely from the U.S. market. It’s impossible to find Arnoux/Bizot/Leroy/d’Auvenay (probably the four cultiest producers IMO; maybe you could add Comte Liger Belair) at any price in the U.S. market. Not that I’m seeking them out–I’m not–but I can’t recall that happening with other Burg producers to quite the same extent, or really with any other producers anywhere (perhaps w/ some micro-production Champagnes). It’s making DRC pricing seem reasonable.

Someone above mentioned Arnaud Ente. That’s one I really don’t get. I haven’t had Bizot or 18/19 Arnoux (I’ve had a fair bit through '17), but I’ve had a nontrivial amount of Leroy (before it went truly insane) and it’s indeed wonderful. I’ve had a fair bit of Ente–largely in Europe for cheap–and I just can’t fathom why it costs what it does. I don’t even like it that much. There’s so much White Burg for low three-digits or even two digits that I vastly prefer.

I mentioned Ente and personally I’ve never had a single bottle I’ve found remotely enjoyable.

[Jason_L]

truly fascinating reading.

[Peter_Chiu]

For those who are interested.

J. Morris reported ( page 336 ) that Bizot’s generic Bourgogne - La Chapitre is now allowed to be labelled as a village wine : Marsannay La Chapitre …starting from vintage 2019. This means Bizot could have 2 Marsannay : CdRoi and La Chapitre.

I just checked Wine-Searcher : My Marsannay favorite producer : Audoin 2018 Marsannay CdRoi is listed at US $ 47 and Bizot is at US $3,370.00 ( no typing error here).

Here is my calculation : One bottle of Bizot Marsannay CdRoi 2018 for 6 cases ( 12 bottles each case) of Audoin Marsannay CdRoi 2018.

[Peter_Chiu]

Here is an interesting observation for the wine trade in relationship with culture in the Chinese society. In the early or middle 2010s…the to-have ( or go-to ) French wine is the number One in 1855 classification : Lafite…specifically from vintage 2008.

It happened a few years back with Bizot…and …now is happening to Arnoux.

[Peter_Chiu]

Bizot Les Jache 2016 was released here at CA $342 and Rousseau CdBeze 2016 was at CA $842.

[RyanC]

I remember well an entertaining thread here where everyone scoffed when Arnoux raised the Reignots to $1,000 MSRP. Seems quaint now.

[Bertrand_Leulliette]

I remember well an entertaining thread here where everyone scoffed when Arnoux raised the Reignots to $1,000 MSRP. Seems quaint now.

I am seeing Echezeaux 2018 for $3000 online… craziness!!!

[Peter_Chiu]

I remember well an entertaining thread here where everyone scoffed when Arnoux raised the Reignots to $1,000 MSRP. Seems quaint now.

I am seeing Echezeaux 2018 for $3000 online… craziness!!!

Please crabbed as many bottles as you could. I just checked wine-searcher. It is at CA $8551 ( offered by GRW Wine Collection - CA USA).

[Bertrand_Leulliette]

I remember well an entertaining thread here where everyone scoffed when Arnoux raised the Reignots to $1,000 MSRP. Seems quaint now.

I am seeing Echezeaux 2018 for $3000 online… craziness!!!

Please crabbed as many bottles as you could. I just checked wine-searcher. It is at CA $8551 ( offered by GRW Wine Collection - CA USA).

If I may, you should never write “offered” when the price is that high…

[Peter_Chiu]

Chinese politeness : offer = if you wish.