QPR - throwdown

[Lee_Short]

Certainly Isole e Olena CCR is a very deserving mention.

[M.Kaplan]

Assyrtiko from Santorini. The greatest white wine value in the world, along with German Riesling (previously mentioned).

For reds, hard to beat cru Beaujolais.

Second the mention of value Champagne. So many great values to choose from at (nearly) all price points.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Assyrtiko from Santorini. The greatest white wine value in the world, along with German Riesling (previously mentioned).

For reds, hard to beat cru Beaujolais.

Second the mention of value Champagne. So many great values to choose from at (nearly) all price points.

You were doing so well, Mark, until you mentioned Beaujolais.

[M.Kaplan]

Ok, Mark, what is your red wine qpr region?

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

Ok, Mark, what is your red wine qpr region?

From a non-Mark perspective, I don’t disagree with Beaujolais, but I’d add Alto Piemonte for red QPR.

[M.Kaplan]

Thanks, Sarah, for mentioning Alto Piemonte. My consumption of qpr red wine has shifted over the past 5 years from Beaujolais to Alto Piemonte and Langhe rosso.

[Howard_Cooper]

Hard to believe there aren’t any Italians. Oh well. More for me.

You need to read better. I had Vajra Albe on my list.

Stop kvetching about what others are doing and grow up. If you want Italian wines on the list, add specific recommendations. What a child.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Thivin
Roilette
Lanessan
Sociando
Raffault
Baudry

I buy these in large quantities in most years. And have for a very long time. I think Thivin is probably the greatest QPR producer on the planet, especially when you consider the number of affordable cuvées they make plus the consistency from vintage to vintage.

Hmmm… I was sure Owlman’s post would include Guion, and I would add “+1”.

For me, Guion, Lopez de Heredia Reservas and Crianzas, Huet secs, and Cadence (WA) Bdx blends. Oh, also, almost any Syrah or Viognier from Northern Rhone satellite appellations…

Domaine Guion should be on that list, and I thought about it, but decided to just list stuff that I really do buy in almost every vintage. Just ordered some 2018 Guion, however!

[LasseK1]

A lot of names have already been mentioned here. So i won’t repeat those.

Some of my favorites are:

Domaine des Marnes Blanches (Jura). Either Aux Bois (Ouillé Savagnin) or En Quatre Vis (Chardonnay). They cost 25/30€ in Europe. Good wines at release… VERY good wines after 2-5 years sleep.

Wasenhaus or Carsten Saalwächter’s base Pinot Noirs/Spätburgunders. Around 20-25€.

Just had my first Hermann Ludes (“Monster” Kabinett 2020). Amazing wine around 17-20€.

Envinate’s wines are still fairly cheap in Europe. Both reds and whites are very interesting.

I also very much like the Cabernet Franc wines from La Porte Saint Jean. Had both the base 2015 and 2016 lately. Blown my mind. Paid 21€. Think it is around 25-27 now.

Franck Balthazar’s Crozes-Hermitage can be very good with a little patience. Costs around 18€?

Francois Dumas Saint-Joseph if you can find it. ALL CAPS AMAZING Syrah…

[Ron_Erickson]

Hard to believe there aren’t any Italians. Oh well. More for me.

You need to read better. I had Vajra Albe on my list.

Stop kvetching about what others are doing and grow up. If you want Italian wines on the list, add specific recommendations. What a child.

OK dad. See post 40.
Just don’t get me started on White Zin.

[Jay_Winton]

For $12 2019 Landi Verdicchio dei Castelli di Jesi Classico defines QPR. I did get a special on this so usually not this inexpensive.

[Phil_M]

For Napa Cabs, Myriad is great QPR across the board. Caterwaul Napa Valley and Rivers-Marie Napa Valley are also excellent values.
Bevan Ontogeny is excellent in almost all vintages.
None of these are sub-$50 wines, but see post #2

[John_Kight]

In order to accurately calculate the ratio of Quality to Price, it is necessary to determine the numerator (Quality). I’m assuming that a wine’s “score” somehow relates to its “Quality” (as perceived by the person giving the score). But is the wine’s score itself the best numeric quantification of quality? If you use the score as a stand-in for quality, it’s hard to imagine any QPR better than a 75 point wine for $3 (Q/P = 25). Even a 100 point wine for $20 offers a lower QPR of only 5!!

However, for several reasons, it is not clear whether a score can be used as a stand-in for quality, as different people use different scales for scoring.

For example, most people place 95% of their wines firmly between 90 and 100 points, with the other 5% scattered between 70 and 90, while others (such as Suckling) score every wine between 96 and 100 points. Still others may use a scale of 1-5…or an A+, A-, A, B+, B, B- scale, or may use the “5-bags-of-popcorn and two sodas” scale more often associated with the ratings used by film buffs in evaluating Cinema.

But even for those using the 100 point scale, it appears that each point on the scale may not carry with it an identical amount of “quality”, and some points are more valuable than others. For many people, the single point at which a wine goes from 89 to 90 carries with it more “quality” than the point between 88 and 89, or between 90 and 91. That one point single-handedly raises a wine’s quality from “very good” to “outstanding”, yet both an 87 and an 89 point wine are both “very good”.

Once agree upon how much “quality” each point on the 1=100 scale carries (or we agree to stipulate that each point carries with it an identical amount of “quality”), only THEN can we begin to have an earnest discussion of relative QPRs.

[Jonathan_Jetter]

Not sure what wines you are buying for $25-30. Your prices seems old to me. Most Falkenstein Kabinetts that I have seen in the last year are more in the $40 to 50 range than $25-30 - I paid about $50 or so for the 2020 Falkenstein Krettnacher Euchariusberg Riesling Kabinett Alte Reben “Gisela” #8 when it first hit this market. JJ Prum WS Kabinetts are in the same $40-50 range. With Keller, what are you buying - certainly not the G Max at $2000 or so. Don’t buy much Donnhoff, but again, what are you buying for $25-30?

My sense is that the German wines from the producers I mentioned are really good as well and are at least a bit cheaper. Note, that, in my cellar, I have more Prum than wines from any other producer and am buying a decent amount of Falkenstein, so I obviously think the wines from these producers are great, but from a QPR perspective today, I just think others are better.

Not necessarily disputing your overall point, but I found some Prum Kabinetts for $30 not long ago, both WS + GH.

Albeit from a small shop that is not on Winesearcher, and in a small state.

[Arv_R]

In order to accurately calculate the ratio of Quality to Price, it is necessary to determine the numerator (Quality). I’m assuming that a wine’s “score” somehow relates to its “Quality” (as perceived by the person giving the score). But is the wine’s score itself the best numeric quantification of quality? If you use the score as a stand-in for quality, it’s hard to imagine any QPR better than a 75 point wine for $3 (Q/P = 25). Even a 100 point wine for $20 offers a lower QPR of only 5!!

However, for several reasons, it is not clear whether a score can be used as a stand-in for quality, as different people use different scales for scoring. For example, most people place 95% of their wines firmly between 90 and 100 points, with the other 5% scattered between 70 and 90, while others (such as Suckling) score every wine between 96 and 100 points. Still others may use a scale of 1-5…or an A+, A-, A, B+, B, B- scale. Still others may use the “5-bags-of-popcorn and two sodas” scale (though that scale is more often associated with the ratings used by film buffs in evaluating Cinema). But even for those using the 100 point scale, it appears that each point on the scale may not carry with it an identical amount of “quality”, and some points are more valuable than others. For many people, the single point at which a wine goes from 89 to 90 carries with it more “quality” than the point between 88 and 89, or between 90 and 91. That one point single-handedly raises a wine’s quality from “very good” to “outstanding”, yet both an 87 and an 89 point wine are both “very good”.

Once agree upon how much “quality” each point on the 1=100 scale carries (or we agree to stipulate that each point carries with it an identical amount of “quality”), only THEN can we begin to have an earnest discussion of relative QPRs.

One day a man will break the 100 pt boundary.

[Howard_Cooper]

Not sure what wines you are buying for $25-30. Your prices seems old to me. Most Falkenstein Kabinetts that I have seen in the last year are more in the $40 to 50 range than $25-30 - I paid about $50 or so for the 2020 Falkenstein Krettnacher Euchariusberg Riesling Kabinett Alte Reben “Gisela” #8 when it first hit this market. JJ Prum WS Kabinetts are in the same $40-50 range. With Keller, what are you buying - certainly not the G Max at $2000 or so. Don’t buy much Donnhoff, but again, what are you buying for $25-30?

My sense is that the German wines from the producers I mentioned are really good as well and are at least a bit cheaper. Note, that, in my cellar, I have more Prum than wines from any other producer and am buying a decent amount of Falkenstein, so I obviously think the wines from these producers are great, but from a QPR perspective today, I just think others are better.

Not necessarily disputing your overall point, but I found some Prum Kabinetts for $30 not long ago, both WS + GH.

Albeit from a small shop that is not on Winesearcher, and in a small state.

Great find. As I said, I love Prum wines and have more wines from Prum than any other producer. But, prices have seemed on the rise in recent vintages.

[lsupp]

In order to accurately calculate the ratio of Quality to Price, it is necessary to determine the numerator (Quality). I’m assuming that a wine’s “score” somehow relates to its “Quality” (as perceived by the person giving the score). But is the wine’s score itself the best numeric quantification of quality? If you use the score as a stand-in for quality, it’s hard to imagine any QPR better than a 75 point wine for $3 (Q/P = 25). Even a 100 point wine for $20 offers a lower QPR of only 5!!

However, for several reasons, it is not clear whether a score can be used as a stand-in for quality, as different people use different scales for scoring.

For example, most people place 95% of their wines firmly between 90 and 100 points, with the other 5% scattered between 70 and 90, while others (such as Suckling) score every wine between 96 and 100 points. Still others may use a scale of 1-5…or an A+, A-, A, B+, B, B- scale, or may use the “5-bags-of-popcorn and two sodas” scale more often associated with the ratings used by film buffs in evaluating Cinema.

But even for those using the 100 point scale, it appears that each point on the scale may not carry with it an identical amount of “quality”, and some points are more valuable than others. For many people, the single point at which a wine goes from 89 to 90 carries with it more “quality” than the point between 88 and 89, or between 90 and 91. That one point single-handedly raises a wine’s quality from “very good” to “outstanding”, yet both an 87 and an 89 point wine are both “very good”.

Once agree upon how much “quality” each point on the 1=100 scale carries (or we agree to stipulate that each point carries with it an identical amount of “quality”), only THEN can we begin to have an earnest discussion of relative QPRs.

If we consider population of available wines to move inversely to score exponentially, then perhaps QPR would be calculated on a logarithmic scale. for instance, I’d say a 100pt wine for $100 (qpr of 1 in a linear ratio) would best a 90pt wine for $10 (qpr of 9) due to the rarity of 100pt wines. So, if we want to get mathematical, maybe QPR=((Q/P)+1)^f, where f=rareness factor.

[JoelD]

Thivin
Roilette
Lanessan
Sociando
Raffault
Baudry

I buy these in large quantities in most years. And have for a very long time. I think Thivin is probably the greatest QPR producer on the planet, especially when you consider the number of affordable cuvées they make plus the consistency from vintage to vintage.

These are great ones. I have yet to go wrong with any of your recommendations. Although I have my own preferences within them of course. I think the higher end bottlings of Thivin and Roilette are actually better QPR than the lower ones. Lanessan is awesome 2014 and older like you said.

For Champagne, my favorite QPR is the Hebrart BDB at 35-37 bucks. I also like the JL vergnon conversation. For slightly higher cost vintage, I love Diebolt Vallois and Gaston Chiquet.

[Joseph_Grassa]

Calabretta Nerello Mascalese Vigne Vecchie
Salvatore Molettieri Irpinia Vigna Cinque Querce
Produttori del Barbaresco Barbaresco
G.D. Vajra Barolo Albe
Altos Las Hormigas Gualtallary
Quinta do Vallado Field Blend
Quinta do Vallado Touriga Nacional

Everything from Raul Perez
Mencia
wines from Maremma
Most tempranillo under $30

[JimJP]

I had a bottle of '18 Birichino Besson Old Vines Grenache last week that cost $25, and was pretty great