Give me some examples of vineyards were some % of the producers destem, while others use whole clusters. What do you like about either?
I am pretty sure - but not 100% sure, that Brewer Clifton does whole cluster. I know some places vary the %s of whole cluster and some always de-stem. Personally I have found that 100% whole cluster give the wine a much more “green” or “weedy / stemy” edge to the fruit when the wine is young but of course that can lead to more interesting complexity down the road, if you give the wine some time to age and have those flavors integrate.
I drink the majority of Pinot Noir rather young so I have less of a preference towards wines that have been whole cluster fermented, unless I can give them time to rest, which is rare.
I think this should be interesting, I have always thought along the same lines as Rob about whole cluster, but have heard that’s not what causes the green weedy edge. Brewer Clifton does do a large % of whole cluster and make a Melville, but don’t know about the Melville version of the vineyard- same winemaker though.
Melville does (or did) include some w/c, though I’m fairly certain it’s not as much as BC.
The vnyd I was thinking of was Fiddlestix. I recall kathy Joseph tasting us a barrel of some % w/c that she made, and wasn’t fond of.
2003 Fiddlehead Pinot Noir. Clone 113, with 75% stem inclusion. Though she doesn’t use stem inclusion, Kathy still likes to experiment from time to time. This was such a barrel. Quite stemmy in the nose - less so in the mouth, though a bitterness to the fruit was apparent.
Yet, I figure there must be other Fiddlestix versions with w/c that are simpatico. Or, heck maybe it’s a vineyard thing, and this one just doesn’t lend itself to w/c as well as some others???
I recall hearing Peter C. say that he didn’t think the fruit from his vineyard lent itself to whole cluster, though obviously BC makes a Cargasacchi Pinot with w/c. Don’t know whether Peter still feels that way about his vineyard.
I wish I had numbers but I am fairly certain that Gary’s and Pisoni are two where there is a wide variety on this issue. I believe Lucia/Pisoni tends to use plenty of whole cluster for instance. But I didn’t a different profile on the Roar bottles.
They do usually use 100% WC at BC and Greg usually uses some % of WC in the Melville wines.
100% doesn’t have to show green when young, it really depends on the vineyard, clone, winemaking practices and, IMHO, watering regime, especially post veraison.
Full disclosure - we use 100% WC on our estate wines and about 50% on our sonoma fruit-
I’m pretty sure that BC has scaled back the amount of WC they currently use - I could be wrong, but I thought I remember reading that . . .
Melville will use anywhere from 0-60% depending upon site / blend . . . .
At Fess Parker, we’ve started using a touch of whole cluster on a handful of ferments - from Bien Nacido (Pommard Clone) and from Ashleys (115, 777 clones). We are very happy with the results thus far, but we are still getting used to the process and what it adds to the end product . . .
Cheers!
In the Willamette Valley, most everyone de-stems, but Cristom (Steve Doerner) is a well-known proponent of at least partial whole-cluster ferments. Based on my limited experience with a small batch of WC that Todd Hamina did at Maysara in 2006, if I were a winemaker I’d avoid it like the plague if only for the difficulty of doing punchdowns.
Andrew V (AP Vin) and Michael Browne (Kosta Browne) use a small percentage of whole cluster for their Kanzler Vineyard Pinots. Kanzlers own Kanzler Estate Pinot does not use whole cluster.
Going off what Bob said, Momtazi Vineyard would have both whole cluster and destemmed wine. St Innocent - destemmed & Biggio Hamina (and probably the 06 Maysara) - WC. I have St Innocent and Biggio Hamina but it is too early to get a read.
I would assume someone is doing whole cluster at Shea … but maybe not.
Although I like it more than Bob seems to, I do think that WC does show itself more prominently in Oregon than in Cali … in general.
In the central coast you have all the Arcadian Vineyards to contrast with others although it seems like some of the others are experimenting with WC.
Interesting comment about the BCs … and Clos Pepe. I don’t know the details and it may have been a vintage thing but I thought Wells Guthrie said he ruined his 05 Clos Pepe by using whole cluster.
Does Joe Davis use WC on his Clos Pepe?
I would love to be part of a big tasting with this kind of comparison. What do you say Eric. I would have bottles to commit.
I am not sure which Vineyards apply in Burgundy although I am sure it is endless. I just don’t pay attention to that kind of stuff with Burgundy. But I would hope we could do some research so those could be included as well.
So I’ll just wait to hear from Eric.
Jason
We’d have to ask Todd what he’s doing, but let me be clear that the batch of WC I worked on at Maysara was a very small batch - maybe one barrel if that, and that’s all there was.
He is definitely doing whole cluster with the Biggio Hamina.
J
Sounds like fun! I probably have stuff to contribute as well. Guess we’d have to research this - I suppose the first thing is to single out the w/c and non-w/c producers, find common vnyds, then settle on vintages??
While the use of whole cluster is a stylistic decision, isn’t this decision largely dependent upon whether the vines achieve a certain degree of lignification? I have a hard time imagining why any producer (even Brewer Clifton) would continue to use whole cluster in a vintage that produces green stems.
They both do some % of w.c. on Garys’ as well. At least I think they both do, haven’t checked in on their '08s yet. 2 great vineyards for whole cluster.
Paul, I think your right, although having had some of the BC 06’s I can’t help but think Greg did use Green stems.
Here in Oregon the people who do wc on a consistent basis are Archery Summit, Bergstrom, Biggio Hamina, Cristom, Matello. I’m sure there are others, but nothing springs to mind.
The Momtazi/Maysara that Bob jumped on was 100% wc and I didn’t do too much with such a high percentage. Maybe 10% in 05 and 40% in 06. The BHC Momtazi 07 was 90% wc.
For me it is more important to have well lignified seeds, rather than stems to go long on wc. Also, if the cluster size is small (like 08) then I’ll use less wc because by default there are more clusters per ton, so more stems per ton.
For what it’s worth, my first exposure to going wc and winemaking was at Archery Summit, and to this day I’ve never seen a well lignified stem in 13 years. It’s a none issue. I bigger culprit to green flavors would be sharp punchdown tools shearing the stems during fermentation. And too high a temperature at the end of fermentation.
My two cents.
Great post Todd. Very informative.
Does Thomas do any?
Thanks for the thoughts. I am no wine-make and don’t often think about these things but this goes in line with what I have understood as a hobbiest.
Cheers,
J
Oh and I think White Rose does 1 bottling that 100% WC.
J