I’m still in the journey of finding white wine I really like, but what I recently noticed is that what I look for the most in white wine is structure, and when I say it, it’s not just high acidity, but a phenolic grip or tannins on the palate. A wine that drinks almost like a red wine (ofc figuratively) if that makes sense.
If my description was unclear, I believe this quality is often described “chiseled”, “minerally”, “textural”, “steely” or “having dry extract” in a tasting note in a poetic way, but they probably don’t mean what I mean all the time, as people use “minerally” or other descriptors to say myriad of different things (e.g. I’m not talking about reductive character in its aroma).
Lamy-Caillat is the most extreme example of what I’m describing but I’ve found this quality in some other wine to a (much) lesser extent: Raveneau, Pierre Morey and Guiberteau. Is there any producers that comes to your mind for this quality? Ideally I’m hoping to find another wine that displays as much phenolic texture on the palate as Lamy-Caillat does, at much lower price. It doesn’t need to be a Burgundy and aromatic profile can be totally different.
As far as I understand, this quality comes from a harsh pressing of grapes and maybe exposure to solids during elevage, but this is just speculation based on what I’ve heard and experienced, and I’m not sure if this is the right way to track down the wines in the style I look for.
Any specific producers or wine you suggest? I haven’t had ton of Riesling, but I haven’t encountered any Riesling that has grippy texture.
I should probably check out some orange wine as you suggested too. At least they get the texture, though I want to find something that’s still white wine.
Riesling that spends a lot of time on the lees (Koehler-Ruprecht Auslese trockens) will show plenty of grippy chewy character. But while grapes vary in their structure, you can find this style in any region and from any grape, just depending on the specifics of the cuvee. Maybe ask your favorite retailer for a smattering across countries/regions.
Typically German Riesling is just cold-soaked with the skins, which makes more aromatic compounds soluble while minimizing phenolic extraction. Phenolic extraction occurs during skin maceration while the wine is fermenting, as higher temperatures and alcohol help extracting phenolic compounds. However, I’ve understood that true skin maceration over fermentation is not that common.
How? To my understanding, if you age on fine lees, you’ll get just creaminess and richer texture from the mannoproteins that come from autolysis, ie. when the yeast cells that make up the fine lees break up. Phenolic compounds are found in the gross lees and typically most wines are racked off the gross lees once the fermentation is over. You might get a richer texture and more leesy flavors, but not that phenolic, chewy and tannic grip from aging on fine lees.
Typically the normal way for a wine to get more phenolic content and higher dry extract is either through maceration over fermentation, less delicate crush and higher inclusion of press wine. Conversely, most modern whites are made by careful, delicate crush; no skin maceration; and small to no inclusion of press wine. I’ve understood that cold soak and prolonged aging on the lees (both of which are common winemaking practices) have quite a tiny impact on the phenolic content of the wine.
Ok, I’ll defer to you on that distinction. But the OP didn’t seem too narrowly focused on the source of the texture. It seemed to me he wanted richer textured white wines, in which case the KR style is something to explore, along with many other wines in all sorts of regions.
But is this cold soak on skins or actual skin maceration over fermentation? This is an honest question, as I haven’t delved that deep into typical GG vinification processes.
And I understood from both the topic and the first message that it was specifically the phenolic character / grip in white wines that OP was looking for.
But yes, if it is just the richness of the texture, there’s a whole world of white wines out there with different textures.
I’ve never had a white wine ever that had tannins in the sense that I understand red wines as having them. Never had a white wine dry out my mouth like that
I’ve had, but to the extent of how a wine like a Jura Poulsard grips, ie. very little. But some white wines do have a little bit of tannic grip. However, it’s something that is barely perceptible, meaning that you really have to look for it to actually notice it - it’s not anything even remotely like how a wine like a Bordeaux or a Nebbiolo can dry out your mouth.
IIRC Albariño has thick skins with a propensity to produce quite phenolic white wines if the grapes are not handled carefully, but typically the phenolic character results in pronounced bitterness in the taste and somewhat more textural mouthfeel, but I can’t remember if I’ve ever tasted an Albariño that had any perceptible tannic grip (apart from those made with extended skin maceration).
To be honest Otto, I to some extent disregarded the phenolic comment except suggesting to drink amber wines and those with a day or two of maceration.
The reason why I recommend Riesling was that later on saw the wines OP gave as example of liking:
“Lamy-Caillat is the most extreme example of what I’m describing but I’ve found this quality in some other wine to a (much) lesser extent: Raveneau, Pierre Morey and Guiberteau. Is there any producers that comes to your mind for this quality? Ideally I’m hoping to find another wine that displays as much phenolic texture on the palate as Lamy-Caillat does, at much lower price.”
I haven’t tried any of these producers white wines but i don’t think they are famous for skin maceration (?), hence my conclusion was that what he might actually appreciate and like is the acidic structure - that’s why I recommend Riesling!
@TakaoS - If we are thinking of the same thing in the end then you have tons of Riesling options, definitely doesn’t have to be GGs, you can sometimes find those qualities in great entry level rieslings. I find the acidic structure in anything dry/trocken from kabinett and upward. Especially Mosel but I only mention that as I drink quite a bit of it myself, but Rheinhessen producers like mentioned Keller, or Wittmann and Seehof are other good examples.
Mosel producers that have somehow in mind of making Mosel wines in the traditionally dry direction is a good option. Follow the Riesling thread and keep any eye out out for these wines (Falkenstein/Stein among these)!
These wines are very different from Riesling with nice acid. They have special texture due to pressing and elevage techniques that people much more qualified can comment on. But they are indeed special for a reason and unfortunately for the OP there is no “similar but cheaper” option.
