Perhaps a silly question, but?

[Otto_Forsberg]

@John Morris

I’m not sure whether to say it is “pinot blanc” or not, since the well-known version was cultivated as a distinct plant for a long time – maybe centuries – while the Gouges white has only been separated from its pinot noir roots for a much shorter period of time.

I haven’t had a Gouges in a while (I have some '98 resting in my cellar), but they certainly didn’t taste anything like any pinot blanc I’ve ever had. They had a faint but distinct pinot noir scent and what seemed like a bit of tannin, even though I don’t think there’s any significant skin contact. So I think it’s better to call it pinot Gouges.

What I meant was that it is technically Pinot Blanc (them both being white mutations of Pinot Noir), but of course it makes sense not to call it such, because it is so distinct from the variety people normally associate with Pinot Blanc. It would be quite misguiding to call it Pinot Blanc, so I’m cool with the Pinot Gouges name.

But raising a different question altogether: should different grape variety clones have different names? After all, there are several clones of Pinot Noir that can produce noticeably different wines, so when a producer is concentrating on a specific clone (as opposed to massal selection), shouldn’t they also disclose the clone - at least from a marketing angle? Of course it could help if the different clones had more marketable and memorable names than just clonal codes.

In a sense the German winegrowers are already one step ahead: they often produce wines labeled as “Spätburgunder” when produced from the German clone (slightly bigger berries, lower skin-to-pulp ratio, locals often see it as inferior) as opposed to wines labeled as “Pinot Noir” that are produced from a clone originating from Burgundy (smaller berries, higher skin-to-pulp ratio, often regarded as superior). I myself often prefer Spätburgunders to Pinot Noirs from the same producer, but that also might have to do with the winemaking - usually the producers age Spätburgunder in larger oak casks and older barrels, whereas Pinot Noirs often see much more new oak barriques and pièces.

@Jay Miller

Yes, it is Pinot Gouges and is genetically distinct from Pinot Blanc.

Is this true? Because that would mean that it wasn’t a white mutation of Pinot Noir but instead a distinct grape variety altogether.

[Wes_Barton]

@jcoley3

Which raises the question - has anyone ever made a Pinot Meunier still white wine?

Pretty sure I touched on this fact a post and two above this. Read the whole thread first.

[dougwilder]

In Oregon, Tony Rynders produced the first White Pinot Noir I tried. That was over ten years ago. In my recent Oregon index, I have a heading for Pinot Noir, White and Pink. A nice one is from Chad Stock, his 2016 Minimus White Wine, Pinot No. 22. He also makes the first domestic Gouges I’ve reviewed, 2016 Origin from Zivo Vineyard in Eola-Amity Hills.

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

Two things are getting confused here, a single mutation and a resulting variety. It is very possible that either two distinct mutations both could cause loss of color pigmentation, or that the same mutation occurred separately, thus still resulting in otherwise separate genetic populations. In either case, the two grapes would be separate varietials. They are only the same varietial if they result from the same genetic mutation occurring in the same genetic population. It is, of course, theoretically possible for the exact same varieties to evolve twice, I suppose, in which case, they would be impossible to distinguish and would effectively be the same variety. Given John’s description, here, though, I do no think that that is the case.

[Otto_Forsberg]

@Jonathan Loesberg

Two things are getting confused here, a single mutation and a resulting variety. It is very possible that either two distinct mutations both could cause loss of color pigmentation, or that the same mutation occurred separately, thus still resulting in otherwise separate genetic populations. In either case, the two grapes would be separate varietials. They are only the same varietial if they result from the same genetic mutation occurring in the same genetic population. It is, of course, theoretically possible for the exact same varieties to evolve twice, I suppose, in which case, they would be impossible to distinguish and would effectively be the same variety. Given John’s description, here, though, I do no think that that is the case.

However, I’d like to point out that in order to get a new variety, you need to have to either cross two different varieties or wait for a natural crossing. In ampelography, varieties resulting from mutations are not considered as new varieties, which is why Pinot Noir, Pinot Blanc and Pinot Gris are considered as only one variety - after all, their DNA profiles are identical. The same goes for Savagnin and Gewürztraminer (which might sound crazy, given that Savagnin is neutral and racy, whereas Gewürztraminer is explosively aromatic but low in acidity).

So no, things are not getting confused here. Technically speaking Pinot Blanc is not a distinct variety from Pinot Noir but instead a white clone of it. However, it’s easier to speak of them as separate varieties in order not to confuse people. When a pigmentation mutation happens in a Pinot Noir, the result is either a Pinot Gris or Pinot Blanc, depending on a color. These things happen all the time and there is nothing rare in that. However, it is rare for someone to start propagating a mutated Pinot Noir again, because we already have one (or several) popular Pinot Blanc clones. If Pinot Gouges is, as it has been claimed in this thread, a color mutation of Pinot Noir, it is essentially a new, distinct clone of Pinot Blanc. Not identical to any previous clone of Pinot Blanc, of course.

But as far as confusions go, you seem to have confused variety and varietal, using them as synonyms.

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

First of all, the word “varietial,” in English to identify a variety of grape is an erstwhile grammatical error, now becoming, alas, standard usage only in the area of wine. Used properly, the seemingly adjectival word form, “varietal,” is only used as a noun to identify a bottle of wine made from only one variety of grape. I expect the distinction you are looking for is the one between a clonal variety and naturally occurring varieties that don’t all occur from one original vine…

It is, of course, not true that varieties only occur from crossbreeding. You need to go back and read basic evolution and the modern synthesis. Varieties occur from genetic mutations changing genetic populations within different groups of the same species. Further, if two groups are genetically identical, then they would be indistinguishable. To the extent that they are distinguishable, either from crossbreeding or environmental isolation, it will because one of those factors has led to genetically distinct populations. Whether the distinctions are large enough to want biologists to separate them as varieties is another question. The distinction between clones and varieties in grape nomenclature occurs, I expect, because of the widespread human activity in grape breeding and the fact that cross breeding in flora, as opposed to fauna, can produce fertile offspring.

And all of this goes back to the same question: the fact that two genetic populations, from two different stocks of the same variety, underwent a mutation that let to the loss of color pigmentation, does not show them to be the same varietation, regardless of whether that mutation occurred through crossbreeding or not. They would be the same variety, I guess in the way that Pinot Blanc and Gewurtztraminer are the same variety, but that was not the issue under discussion.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

@John Morris

Cavallotto, the Barolo maker, makes an excellent pinot nero bianco under the “Pinner” brand: https://www.skurnik.com/sku/pinot-nero-in-bianco-pinner-cavallotto-2-2-2/
. . .

We had this at the winery last October and it was quite good, but I do not recall them claiming it to be a “white” pinot noir, but the tech sheets on their website do say “red grapes vinified white.” We liked the wine.

[Otto_Forsberg]

@Jonathan Loesberg

First of all, the word “varietial,” in English to identify a variety of grape is an erstwhile grammatical error, now becoming, alas, standard usage only in the area of wine. Used properly, the seemingly adjectival word form, “varietal,” is only used as a noun to identify a bottle of wine made from only one variety of grape. I expect the distinction you are looking for is the one between a clonal variety and naturally occurring varieties that don’t all occur from one original vine…

It is, of course, not true that varieties only occur from crossbreeding. You need to go back and read basic evolution and the modern synthesis. Varieties occur from genetic mutations changing genetic populations within different groups of the same species. Further, if two groups are genetically identical, then they would be indistinguishable. To the extent that they are distinguishable, either from crossbreeding or environmental isolation, it will because one of those factors has led to genetically distinct populations. Whether the distinctions are large enough to want biologists to separate them as varieties is another question. The distinction between clones and varieties in grape nomenclature occurs, I expect, because of the widespread human activity in grape breeding and the fact that cross breeding in flora, as opposed to fauna, can produce fertile offspring.

And all of this goes back to the same question: the fact that two genetic populations, from two different stocks of the same variety, underwent a mutation that let to the loss of color pigmentation, does not show them to be the same varietation, regardless of whether that mutation occurred through crossbreeding or not. They would be the same variety, I guess in the way that Pinot Blanc and Gewurtztraminer are the same variety, but that was not the issue under discussion.

Well that escalated quickly, you telling me to read basic evolution based on one single comment. I thought people understood that as this is a wine forum, I was talking from a viticultural point of view.

Yes, of course new varieties - even species - can and will occur from genetic mutations, but that is a process that normally takes thousands of years, even millennia. However, we’re now talking of a time span of centuries, perhaps a thousand years - not really enough for a grape variety to show enough genetical difference to be called a distinct variety. After all, there are numerous examples of grape varieties from around the world that have been grown separately for centuries, showing obvious clonal differences, yet they are still treated as one variety.

You supposed that the distinction in nomenclature between a clone and a variety exists because of human intervention. Alas, no, they exist simply because they are two different things. For example, there are many instances where two completely dissimal varieties can produce almost identical wines and two almost identical clones of one variety can produce two VERY different wines. With a clear distinction between a clone and a variety you don’t have to wonder whether the two varieties are related to each other or not, irrespective of the style they produce. Simply put, if a vine is genetically identical to another, it is a clone of that vine (or vice versa). If a vine is grown from a grape seed, it is not genetically identical to it, but instead its offspring. If its parents are both of the same variety, their offspring should also show the same characteristics, thus can be regarded as the same variety or a close relative. If its parents are from two different varieties, we have a new, unique grape variety.

Then, on to mutations. “Pinot Blanc” is a name for a white mutation of Pinot Noir - no matter from which Pinot Noir clone it has come from. It might be that one Pinot Blanc vine might be genetically identical to a Pinot Noir, yet genetically different from a Pinot Blanc vine next to it, if that is a different clone. However, all these share the same DNA (as, for example, human DNA is more or less identical throughout the humankind) so they are, from an ampelographical point of view, one and the same variety.

Thus, as I’ve said before, this Pinot Gouges is genetically distinct from other Pinot Blanc clones, but its DNA profile is still identical to other Pinot Blanc clones (and other Pinots for that matter).

And while looking into things, I came across this little piece:
A white berried sport of Pinot noir was propagated in 1936 by Henri Gouges of Burgundy, and there is now 2.5ha planted of this grape which Clive Coates calls Pinot Gouges, and others call Pinot Musigny. There is however no published evidence, nor any obvious reason, to believe that this is other than a (possibly quite fine) form of Pinot blanc, having simply arisen as a selected natural mutation of the original Pinot noir in the Gouges’ vineyard. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinot_noir#History,_mutants_and_clones

Of course, this is only a quote from Wikipedia, but still it seems to confirm the point I have been trying to make here.

[Otto_Forsberg]

Checking Henri Gouges web page, even they refer to their Pinot Gouges as “Pinot Blanc”, elaborating that it is often referred to as “Pinot Gouges”.

[Gerhard_P]

@Jonathan Loesberg

First of all, the word “varietial,” in English to identify a variety of grape is an erstwhile grammatical error, now becoming, alas, standard usage only in the area of wine. Used properly, the seemingly adjectival word form, “varietal,” is only used as a noun to identify a bottle of wine made from only one variety of grape. I expect the distinction you are looking for is the one between a clonal variety and naturally occurring varieties that don’t all occur from one original vine…

It is, of course, not true that varieties only occur from crossbreeding. You need to go back and read basic evolution and the modern synthesis. Varieties occur from genetic mutations changing genetic populations within different groups of the same species. Further, if two groups are genetically identical, then they would be indistinguishable. To the extent that they are distinguishable, either from crossbreeding or environmental isolation, it will because one of those factors has led to genetically distinct populations. Whether the distinctions are large enough to want biologists to separate them as varieties is another question. The distinction between clones and varieties in grape nomenclature occurs, I expect, because of the widespread human activity in grape breeding and the fact that cross breeding in flora, as opposed to fauna, can produce fertile offspring.

And all of this goes back to the same question: the fact that two genetic populations, from two different stocks of the same variety, underwent a mutation that let to the loss of color pigmentation, does not show them to be the same varietation, regardless of whether that mutation occurred through crossbreeding or not. They would be the same variety, I guess in the way that Pinot Blanc and Gewurtztraminer are the same variety, but that was not the issue under discussion.

Jonathan,

please educate me ´cause I´m always interested to learn:
When I say/write:
“Champagne is usually made from the varieties Chardonnay, Pinot noir and Pinot Meunier”
and “Pinot noir is a different variety from Pinot Meunier”

… is this correct?

@ John:

Pinot Gouges is a white grape (a red grape that has lost its colour by mutation) … so the wine is actually not a still “Blanc de noir” because there are no red pigments in the skin which have to be avoided in wine making … right?

BTW: I agree that the Nuits-SG Perrières (blanc) tastes nothing like a typical Pinot blanc - very individually …

[Howard_Cooper]

There is a lot of discussion above about Pinot Blanc being a variety. It has always been my understanding that at least two grape types (Klevner and Auxerrois) are entitled to use the term Pinot Blanc.

[John_Morris]

@J a y H a c k

@John Morris

Cavallotto, the Barolo maker, makes an excellent pinot nero bianco under the “Pinner” brand: https://www.skurnik.com/sku/pinot-nero-in-bianco-pinner-cavallotto-2-2-2/
. . .

We had this at the winery last October and it was quite good, but I do not recall them claiming it to be a “white” pinot noir, but the tech sheets on their website do say “red grapes vinified white.” We liked the wine.

The winery website doesn’t state the grapes, but the Skurnik data sheet in the link above explains that it’s 100% pinot nero (= pinot noir) and that the “Pinner” name is a contraction of pinot nero. And I remember tasting it at the winery and discussing it on a visit in 2002.

[John_Morris]

@Howard Cooper

There is a lot of discussion above about Pinot Blanc being a variety. It has always been my understanding that at least two grape types (Klevner and Auxerrois) are entitled to use the term Pinot Blanc.

That’s where it gets really complicated. In Alsace, klevner evidently is a different grape which, along with Auxerrois, another grape type, can be blended with pinot blanc and labeled as pinot blanc. (Wikipedia link)

But here’s the twist: In Austria, Klevner (capitalized in German!) is an alternative name for pinot blanc itself, which can also be called Weissburgunder.

There will be a quiz tomorrow.

[Robert.A.Jr]

#nerds

[John_Morris]

@Otto Forsberg

What I meant was that [Gouges blanc] is technically Pinot Blanc (them both being white mutations of Pinot Noir)…

@Otto Forsberg

“Pinot Blanc” is a name for a white mutation of Pinot Noir - no matter from which Pinot Noir clone it has come from.

Is that really correct? Or is pinot blanc the name for a particular white clonal variation of pinot noir?

[Jonathan_Loesberg]

@Gerhard P.

@Jonathan Loesberg

First of all, the word “varietial,” in English to identify a variety of grape is an erstwhile grammatical error, now becoming, alas, standard usage only in the area of wine. Used properly, the seemingly adjectival word form, “varietal,” is only used as a noun to identify a bottle of wine made from only one variety of grape. I expect the distinction you are looking for is the one between a clonal variety and naturally occurring varieties that don’t all occur from one original vine…

It is, of course, not true that varieties only occur from crossbreeding. You need to go back and read basic evolution and the modern synthesis. Varieties occur from genetic mutations changing genetic populations within different groups of the same species. Further, if two groups are genetically identical, then they would be indistinguishable. To the extent that they are distinguishable, either from crossbreeding or environmental isolation, it will because one of those factors has led to genetically distinct populations. Whether the distinctions are large enough to want biologists to separate them as varieties is another question. The distinction between clones and varieties in grape nomenclature occurs, I expect, because of the widespread human activity in grape breeding and the fact that cross breeding in flora, as opposed to fauna, can produce fertile offspring.

And all of this goes back to the same question: the fact that two genetic populations, from two different stocks of the same variety, underwent a mutation that let to the loss of color pigmentation, does not show them to be the same varietation, regardless of whether that mutation occurred through crossbreeding or not. They would be the same variety, I guess in the way that Pinot Blanc and Gewurtztraminer are the same variety, but that was not the issue under discussion.

Jonathan,

please educate me ´cause I´m always interested to learn:
When I say/write:
“Champagne is usually made from the varieties Chardonnay, Pinot noir and Pinot Meunier”
and “Pinot noir is a different variety from Pinot Meunier”

… is this correct?

@ John:

Pinot Gouges is a white grape (a red grape that has lost its colour by mutation) … so the wine is actually not a still “Blanc de noir” because there are no red pigments in the skin which have to be avoided in wine making … right?

BTW: I agree that the Nuits-SG Perrières (blanc) tastes nothing like a typical Pinot blanc - very individually …

I don’t know why this question is addressed to me since Otto is the one who asserted that pinot blanc, pinot meunier, etc. are the same variety. And I doubt the question is being asked ingenuously. I will nevertheless answer like a straight man. For the most part, and, for instance, on Wiki, Chardonnay, Pinot noir, etc. are identified as different varieties. So I would vote that you are right. But, Otto’s assertion has impressive backing in the form of this statement by Carole Meredith:

“A variety starts out as a vine that grows from a single seed. All vines that are propagated from that original vine by cuttings or buds will be that same variety. Over centuries of time and many thousands of vines, small spontaneous genetic changes will arise in individual vines and be perpetuated in any subsequent vines propagated from those individual vines. In that way, clonal variants will emerge, some visible or discernible by tasting and some not. No matter how many changes occur to separate these clones, they will always be clones of the original variety. They will never diverge into separate varieties. And this is clearly detectable by DNA analysis. Even dramatically different clones of Pinot Noir, for example, have the same DNA profile. And Pinot Gris, Pinot Blanc, and Meunier also have the same DNA profile as Pinot Noir. They are all clones of the same variety: Pinot.”

So, I guess, the answer to your question is, depends on who you listen to.

[John_Morris]

@Gerhard P.

@ John:

Pinot Gouges is a white grape (a red grape that has lost its colour by mutation) … so the wine is actually not a still “Blanc de noir” because there are no red pigments in the skin which have to be avoided in wine making … right?

BTW: I agree that the Nuits-SG Perrières (blanc) tastes nothing like a typical Pinot blanc - very individually …

It’s debatable, but the OP asked about whites made from pinot noir, without reference to the color of the pinot noir. I qualified my reference to Gouges by saying “if you want to get freaky.”

[John_Morris]

@Jonathan Loesberg

First of all, the word “varietial,” in English to identify a variety of grape is an erstwhile grammatical error, now becoming, alas, standard usage only in the area of wine. Used properly, the seemingly adjectival word form, “varietal,” is only used as a noun to identify a bottle of wine made from only one variety of grape. I expect the distinction you are looking for is the one between a clonal variety and naturally occurring varieties that don’t all occur from one original vine…

Let’s not beat up on Otto for using idiomatic English. We’ve got enough other bones of contention.

[Brian_Tuite]

@GregT

For example in places where it’s too cold to reliably ripen reds, maybe they’d be better off trying blanc de noir still wines. Haven’t had enough to form an opinion though.

You mean Burgundy?

[Craig_G]

@John Morris

@Jonathan Loesberg

First of all, the word “varietial,” in English to identify a variety of grape is an erstwhile grammatical error, now becoming, alas, standard usage only in the area of wine. Used properly, the seemingly adjectival word form, “varietal,” is only used as a noun to identify a bottle of wine made from only one variety of grape. I expect the distinction you are looking for is the one between a clonal variety and naturally occurring varieties that don’t all occur from one original vine…

Let’s not beat up on Otto for using idiomatic English. We’ve got enough other bones of contention.

This begs the question: Would Jonathan’s head explode if I were to misuse “begging the question?”