Dave, Katz’s, which I (and most people who have opinions on it) consider “ze best” pastrami, actually uses a dry cure. That was reported in the great book, Save the Deli, at p. 12. It is smoked and then the “steam box” is used as a tenderizer until it it ready and tender. Not sure this link will take you to the page: Amazon.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. As you point out, Schwartz’s also uses a dry cure, but they use a brisket, rather than the fattier, more complicated to slice navel (I’ve tried that cut and now use brisket, for many reasons.)
Russell,
I make the dry cure, which is essentially garlic powder or real garlic, depending; coriander and pepper I grind right before rubbing it in; and Morton’s blend of salt and nitrite (Tender Quick?) , which I’ve had to find online. http://morton.elsstore.com/view/category/178-meat-curing/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; I trim some of the fat from the whole brisket…the thinner cut is way too lean, IMO, to use alone for pastrami, though ok for corned beef. Then stab the meat with a thin knife all over (particularly at the thin, lean portion) and rub in the rub. I then put it into Foodsaver vacuum bags, etc…put a weight on top of the meat (usually I do at least 2 at time) and turn them and massage them for the next 10-11 days. Scrape off that rub. Add a new rub, omitting the Mortons and the garlic. Then smoke for 6-7 hours @ 200-210 to give it flavor but not much cooking and then steam it for the same amount of time until “testing”, ie, tasting says it’s ready to get that tender texture I associate with Katz’s/Carnegi/Schwartz’s.
It took me a couple years to get to the point where my kids, who’ve been to all these delis at least twice each, liked the product.
Most likely you cooked it too hot and too fast - low and slow - especially slow. Never trim the fat off until just before you are serving the finished product - most consider this step optional.
Sorry for the confusion. In reading Russell’s post on wine-pages, it appeared that he had cooked his beef before smoking it. I assumed this was to have it be less smokey, but that the texture was then off. I was only commenting on the likely cause of the tough texture being too high of a heat source. And although I’ve never made a pastrami, my expectation is exactly the same–corned beef is a wet marinade while pastrami would get a dry rub, but that just may be my barbeque bias showing through. I have seen plenty of recipes that use a brine. As someone who prefers Langers for pastrami, I’m a firm believer in a long steam. Langers say they steam for over 3 hours, which is why it’s so tender there.
I long felt that Katz’s was the best but the last two times I’ve been there I was seriously underwhelmed. I ordered a copy of the book, I’m curious about it. I’ve tried a handful of dry cures and haven’t loved the results but maybe after reading that book I’ll be convinced to give it another go.
I buy whole briskets, use the point for pastrami and the flat for stew. Even when I’ve made wagyu pastrami the flat is too lean to end up with the texture I’m looking for. I think it’s really important to tightly wrap the meat when it comes out of the smoker and let it cool slowly. I wrap mine in plastic wrap then foil and toss it in an empty cooler for several hours until the temperature is down to 140*F. It goes in the fridge after that to finish cooling. Steam is key for the flavor to be right – the crust needs to soften a bit so the spices and a bit of fat get smeared into the meat when you slice it. But who knows, maybe I’m making some sort of non-pastrami abomination. Either way, I’m happy to eat it.
To be clear about the book, it will not give you a recipe, just enthusiasm/motivation. I communicated with its author a bit (and went to see him “speak” at the Philadelphia main library when the book came out). His is not a cookbook and he won’t open any secrets to how to make it, though the places I know and like all do it pretty much the way I do, because I do it their way on purpose.
Like pizza…everyone might have a different ideal, I guess. But, mine is the one that the author describes…repeatedly and well. I can’t say I can recreate it, though, just try to.
FWIW, I’ve never had disappointing pastrami at Katz’s or Carnegie or 2nd Ave. The corned beef at Katz’s, though, I don’t like too much. Not sure why.
Having spent 9 years of my youth in the wasteland of the Chicago deli biz (Vienna, Sinai 48, Best’s Kosher mediocrities), and also having experienced the joy of Katz’s, 2nd Ave, Carnegie and Schwartz’s, I can only state that I am very happy to have discovered the house-smoked brisket pastrami at the local Whole Foods (Kingsbury location), which has a great dry rub, and is very tender. Eleven City Diner also has a very good pastrami, which I think may be Eisenberg’s brand.
I just wish I had the facilities to do my own smoking.
I’m not convinced that the author of the book is correct about Katz et al using a dry cure – everyone I’ve spoken with about it says they use a wet cure. Wikipedia and countless random websites seem to agree.
Let us know if you find something authoritative, Dave. The author “worked” there, and is attuned to the “issue” of how they’re made, so…I’d think he was right, but…am always open to reliable info.
The Katz’s owners have been cagey about their process, at times. I know that.
(My older son went to college with the son of one of the owners. He manages the place now. I doubt he’d ask him , though…but, I’ll try. See what you can provide first, though that is “convincing”.
Well, you’ve certainly got the condescending angle covered here with your reply. You’re fairly happy with the pastrami you make. You’re convinced it’s the same style as the places you are trying to emulate so I’m guessing that at this point there’s no benefit to continuing this discussion. It might be worth noting that Katz’s and nearly all others outsource their pastrami production. and that the overwhelming majority of the staff would have no idea how the meat was processed before it arrives in their kitchen.
The reply was not meant to be condescending. I am generally interested in knowing the answer to this, though, as you point out, I am satisfied with my method. But, that’s not my point. I found a book that reported on the issue. I have emailed its author to see if he has anymore info. As you might imagine, that " everyone [you]'ve spoken with about it says they use a wet cure. Wikipedia and countless random websites seem" to confirm…isn’t too authoritative or convincing. You might be right, though. And, I’d like to see anything that has convinced you. This is all of academic curiosity to me, but interesting enough to pursue.So, I’m all ears…and tongue.
Since I should be working but would rather be searching for whatever passes for credible sources for these things, here’s what I found to support my wet-brine take on NY pastrami –
NY Times discussing a pastrami feud caused by inferior NJ water in the pastrami brine:
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/22/nyregion/7th-ave-pastrami-feud-is-a-test-of-allegiances.html?src=pm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
An old Mr Cutlets article about Carnegie Deli (from archive.org):
Mr. Cutlets home page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wikipedia (for whatever that’s worth):
Pastrami - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here’s some blogger talking about the Save the Deli book and Katz’s (brined) pastrami coming from Empire National but who knows how credible that is:
Pastrami Blog: New York - Veni, Vite, Vici." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On the dead-tree front, the Ruhlman & Polcyn Charcuterie book (pages 91-92) calls for a wet cure while the Kinsella & Harvey Professional Charcuterie book (pages 191-192) calls for a dry cure. The Professional Charcuterie recipe isn’t for something I’d call pastrami – they want a 5# chunk of bottom round to be cured without any pink salt for 12 days in a ziplock bag then smoked at 130F until the internal temp is 120F, it should then be chilled for two days and simmered in beef stock for two or more hours before serving. I think I’ll pass on trying that.
Thanks, Dave. Not sure it answers what Katz’s uses. The discussion wasn’t about “NY Pastrami” generally; I know some places that are good use a wet soak/brine. The Carnegie actually supplies lots of places from its “commisary” in Secaucaus, the owner told me recently. To get consistency on a larger scale like that, you’d have to use a brine, I think…for its getting all into the meat and for speed. I know Ruhlman’s recipe…and used it the first time I tried to make it. It was, I thought, corned beef with a smoky spicy flavor. At that point, I emailed the guy who wrote Save the Deli. He had no recipe, but gave me the email address of someone who did and wrote to him about it. I listened to what that guy had to say…about the importance of dry rubbing. etc/. But, he used powdered smoke or something like that. So , I moved on…
I do use a brine to make corned beef and, last fall, some really good pickled tongue, which tasted a lot like corned beef. But, I think a dry rub creates a more intense flavor.
I’ll post if I ever get more “authoritative” stuff on what Katz’s uses than the Save the Deli book. Likewise…feel free to do so. It’s more fun than working.
I use Katz’s because, for pastrami, I think Katz’s is regarded as being in a league of its own…at least in NY. Since I like it the best, too, that’s my holy grail. Just like my pizza holy grail is in Trenton, NJ. It is nice to have a specific goal like those-- sometimes.
Hello pastrami lovers,
I saw from my stat counter some people were looking at my blog - specifically my post in NYC and Katz’s deli. There was some questioning of where Katz’s deli gets their pastrami. I would like to direct you to an older post Pastrami Blog: Happy Halloween! Saul's, David's, George's on 24th, Canter's Halloween" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - in this post I met David Sax (previously mentioned in the thread) to see him talk about his book - “Save the Deli”. At his book signing at Saul’s deli in Berkeley, California there was a taste test. The meats included Marin Sun “grass fed” corned beef, Niman Ranch pastrami, Empire National corned beef, and Empire National pastrami. Before the taste test David Sax himself said that Empire National is the supplier of Katz’s deli. They may have some finishing techniques that make it a bit different (as most jewish delis do) from the original delivery, but I believe the pastrami comes from Empire National because I was told by Sax himself. That’s my source (a deli expert by the highest standards) and if he’s wrong - then I’m not sure who can provide a better answer besides the owners of Katz’s themselves.
Theodore Ordon-Yaussi AKA Pastrami King of the Bay Area
King,
I don’t know that anybody here asked that question, as it doesn’t answer anything we’ve been discussing. Where they have them processed for steaming…is sort of irrelevant for us would-be imitators… ![[whistle.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/87d24eb81ec6dc01d84f3d6c19fa9a357e90218e.gif "whistle"){kind=small}
We’re all here, I think, trying to figure out how to make the holy grail. (And, FWIW, Empire National doesn’t exist any longer; they are now “Grand Kosher”.)
Keep up the good work and worthy obsession…i went to your blog and you rival David Sax himself, it seems…in your quixotic pastrami quest. ![[thumbs-up.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/f/f84c5acc11486ee4baba6dee6cf61dbd133abb18.gif "[thumbs-up.gif]"){kind=small}
Interesting article just release in the NY Daily News. People voted Mill Basin as having the best pastrami, ahead of Katz’s. The article also states that Katz’s “steams their pastrami for four hours each morning.” while the owner of the Mill Basin says he steams it twice (he says it in the video, doesn’t give timing). http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/02/06/2011-02-06_best_of_new_york_mill_basin_deli_takes_top_pastrami_honors_katzs_deli_and_loeser.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Of course I’m a West Coast guy so I’m always going to say Langer’s is the best. One guy up in the Bay Area has a place where he makes his own pastrami on site - his restaurant is called the Refuge. I talked to the owner about his prep once and he said it was very intensive and required constant checking of the meat to make sure all sides were being cooked throughly and also not over cooked. Check out this video of the Refuge’s pastrami - if you can view it. http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1265041264475" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for the good words - Stuart…hope I helped a little in your pastrami quest!
My Steelers came up short in the Super Bowl. So the highlight of the day was the plump Langer’s pastrami sandwich at the half. The guests even scarfed so much of the other stuff that there was a half-pound leftover, which will be had in a “horizontal” with the pound of corned beef I bought.
If you really want to talk top pastrami, you have to try that made by wine board regular, fellow SoCal Saul Cooperstein. I’m sure I’ve commented before on it. Saul opts for a sous vide technique and has used A5 grade Wagyu/Kobe and veal. The marbling and fat content make it amazing.
Rob:
If you haven’t had it yet, seek out the house made smoked meat from Fumare at the French Market that Corey referred to on page 1 of this thread