Pastrami?

[zachary_l_a_n_g]

@cjsavino

Come visit NJ, Harolds Deli has two location and an unbelievable pastrami, not too lean, one serving will easily make 5-6 sandwiches, rye and mustard of course.

I love Harolds!!! One sandwich for the table!!! and the pickle bar…yum!

[johngonzales]

I love pastrami. The Schwartz’s smoked meat is near the top of my must try food lists.

I go to Langer’s quite a bit and get to Katz’s once a year. Personally I think the Langer’s sandwich gets a slight nod. To make the fair comparison one has to get the hand-cut. I’m surprised in the comparison “throw-down” written about in print and on-line that the used the Langer’s machine cut.

Nonetheless, they/people are definitely correct that Langer’s has the better bread. I think they have the better pastrami too, but honestly it is really close and my wife gives a slight edge to the meat at Katz’s. A great pastrami sandwich is an absolute must for every Superbowl half-time at our house. Last game I told Norm Langer that I was thinking of having some Katz’s over-nighted in to do a comparison. He said it wouldn’t be fair as the Katz’s would be a couple of days old once we ate it and at a disadvantage. Still, I think I’m going to do it this year.

Hopefully I’ll be able to get wine-board member Saul Cooperstein to through his own pastrami into the mix. It is different but definitely a gem. He typically makes it from A5 Kobe rib cap, cooked sous vide. He’s also done veal pastrami. If you ate a Langer’s-sized sandwich of this stuff you’d need to mainline the Lipitor.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Thread ressurection alert:

I am 10 days into a wet cure for my first attempt, I was going to leave it three weeks (based on the vague recipe I was following), then slowly hot smoke.

Seems others do a much shorter cure, any thoughts?

[Bill_Ackerman]

@Russell Faulkner

Thread ressurection alert:

I am 10 days into a wet cure for my first attempt, I was going to leave it three weeks (based on the vague recipe I was following), then slowly hot smoke.

Seems others do a much shorter cure, any thoughts?

All depends on the concentration of the cure and the surface area/volume ratio and whether you pump any cure into the meat. I pump in about 15% of the weight of the meat and cure for 3-5 days.

[Corey_N]

@johngonzales

I love pastrami. The Schwartz’s smoked meat is near the top of my must try food lists.

I go to Langer’s quite a bit and get to Katz’s once a year. Personally I think the Langer’s sandwich gets a slight nod. To make the fair comparison one has to get the hand-cut. I’m surprised in the comparison “throw-down” written about in print and on-line that the used the Langer’s machine cut.

Nonetheless, they/people are definitely correct that Langer’s has the better bread. I think they have the better pastrami too, but honestly it is really close and my wife gives a slight edge to the meat at Katz’s. A great pastrami sandwich is an absolute must for every Superbowl half-time at our house. Last game I told Norm Langer that I was thinking of having some Katz’s over-nighted in to do a comparison. He said it wouldn’t be fair as the Katz’s would be a couple of days old once we ate it and at a disadvantage. Still, I think I’m going to do it this year.

Hopefully I’ll be able to get wine-board member Saul Cooperstein to through his own pastrami into the mix. It is different but definitely a gem. He typically makes it from A5 Kobe rib cap, cooked sous vide. He’s also done veal pastrami. If you ate a Langer’s-sized sandwich of this stuff you’d need to mainline the Lipitor.

Schwartz’s in Montreal is the best pastrami/smoked meat I have ever tasted. Hard to explain it in all it’s deliciousness, but simply incredible.

In Chicago, we have a place in the French Market (just west of the Loop) called Fumar’e meat market that makes their own Montreal style smoked meat – also fantastic, but not as good as Schwartz’s.

Separately, this is on my list of things to do: http://ruhlman.com/2009/07/homemade-short-rib-pastrami-i-am-not-the-first-asianjewishdeli-says-hes-been-doing-it-for-months.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Eric_LeVine]

Wow that Ruhlman recipe looks EPIC!

And I agree about Schwartz’s.

[David_K_o_l_i_n]

@Corey N.

In Chicago, we have a place in the French Market (just west of the Loop) called Fumar’e meat market that makes their own Montreal style smoked meat – also fantastic, but not as good as Schwartz’s.

Totally agree.

I’ve been reading “Save the Deli” by a Torontonian over the last week - a history of the Jewish delicatessen and tour of the US, Canada and Europe tasting what remains. I’m enjoying it quite a bit, although everyone will have issues with what the authors preferences are (he thinks LA is the best deli town and that Detroit has the best rye bread (he’s right on the latter))

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[Bob_Wood]

@Eric LeVine

Wow that Ruhlman recipe looks EPIC!

Does it EVAHR!

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Corey N.

@johngonzales

I love pastrami. The Schwartz’s smoked meat is near the top of my must try food lists.

I go to Langer’s quite a bit and get to Katz’s once a year. Personally I think the Langer’s sandwich gets a slight nod. To make the fair comparison one has to get the hand-cut. I’m surprised in the comparison “throw-down” written about in print and on-line that the used the Langer’s machine cut.

Nonetheless, they/people are definitely correct that Langer’s has the better bread. I think they have the better pastrami too, but honestly it is really close and my wife gives a slight edge to the meat at Katz’s. A great pastrami sandwich is an absolute must for every Superbowl half-time at our house. Last game I told Norm Langer that I was thinking of having some Katz’s over-nighted in to do a comparison. He said it wouldn’t be fair as the Katz’s would be a couple of days old once we ate it and at a disadvantage. Still, I think I’m going to do it this year.

Hopefully I’ll be able to get wine-board member Saul Cooperstein to through his own pastrami into the mix. It is different but definitely a gem. He typically makes it from A5 Kobe rib cap, cooked sous vide. He’s also done veal pastrami. If you ate a Langer’s-sized sandwich of this stuff you’d need to mainline the Lipitor.

Schwartz’s in Montreal is the best pastrami/smoked meat I have ever tasted. Hard to explain it in all it’s deliciousness, but simply incredible.

In Chicago, we have a place in the French Market (just west of the Loop) called Fumar’e meat market that makes their own Montreal style smoked meat – also fantastic, but not as good as Schwartz’s.

Separately, this is on my list of things to do: http://ruhlman.com/2009/07/homemade-short-rib-pastrami-i-am-not-the-first-asianjewishdeli-says-hes-been-doing-it-for-months.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Couple of thoughts:

1. I think Schwartz, and smoked meat, in general, are pastrami essentially made from the leaner parts of the brisket rather than the navel that the US delis use. That seems to be the main difference. Since I use the whole brisket…I guess it’s really “smoked” meat. (Though I’ve liked it fine…i do prefer Katz’s or Carnegie’s pastrami to the Montreal half-brother.)
2. The Ruhlman link suggests that pastrami is just corned beef that has been spiced and taken to the next step…by grilling or smoking. But, that’s not really the case with most traditional pastrami recipes, which use a dry rub and real smoking (though some places now use the smoke from the meat dripping rather than wood to create the smoke.) Many people seem to believe that pastrami is just corned beef expanded, but I don’t think so, though some of the better known places’ pastrami is differently made from the “traditional” recipe. (I realize that “traditional” and “classic” are not that specific terms, at least in this context, but I think wet cure is not part of the roots, from my reading.)

[Russell_Faulkner]

Made my first one at the weekend, was quite tough though, any idea why?

Details:

http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=028553" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Bill_Ackerman]

@Russell Faulkner

Made my first one at the weekend, was quite tough though, any idea why?

Details:

http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=028553" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6 hours not long enough to break down the tough collagen. Keep temps around 225F-250F and smoke until a sharp fork pierces without resistance. Depending on the size/shape, mine usually take 10-15 hours to reach the melting-tender-juicy heaven that is pastrami. In general, pastrami takes somewhat less time than uncured brisket. You really can’t rush pastrami. Many people will recommend using foil at some point in cooking brisket; this can accelerate tenderizing, but results in an inferior product IMHO.

[johngonzales]

Just about time to start thinking Langers’ Pastrami. The halftime pastrami sandwich is as much tradition as the kick-off bubbly and the game itself.

My dad read “Save the Deli” then I read his. He’s always loved corned beef. Now, when I go see him in his non-deli town, I often tote a vacuum pack of Langer’s corned beef. I will say that while LA does have quite a few decent delis, many are Hollywood; and it’s kind of sad if we are the best deli town.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Russell Faulkner

Made my first one at the weekend, was quite tough though, any idea why?

Details:

http://www.wine-pages.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=028553" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind of hard to figure out what you did/didn’t do without studying that extensive other link, but if I skimmed it right…you took whatever the meat and what the cure was …from the smoker to the table?

If so, you’ve left out the part that is the only thing that “real” pastrami places do to tenderize it enough to slice and love: steam on a rack, out of the water…for up to 8 hours.

If you want to put up a summary/timeline of what you did, it might be clearer, but that sure seems to be the problem.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Correct I did not steam it, most of the advice I saw online was to either cold smoke and steam, or hot with no steam, I went for the latter.

It wasn’t a huge deal, flavour was right (maybe too much smoke) but it was a bit chewy.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Russell Faulkner

Correct I did not steam it, most of the advice I saw online was to either cold smoke and steam, or hot with no steam, I went for the latter.

It wasn’t a huge deal, flavour was right (maybe too much smoke) but it was a bit chewy.

Now, maybe you know what to try next time. I think that would do it, though neither of the methods you’ve described as what the “great” pastrami places in NY (if that’s your ideal; it’s mine) do. And, most of them seem to use a dry cure, as well. Of course, they use the navel cut, which is inherently fattier than the leaner part of the brisket.

It’s a great feeling when it turns out “right”, though. A real holy grail of cooking, for me anyway.

good luck next time.

[G_Bienstock]

By far the best CB and pastrami I have ever had is at Bragman’s Deli in Newark, NJ.

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-10741277R-bragmans_delicatessen_restaurant-i" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 'hood is now crappy and they close at 6:30 for a good reason. My friend who grew up in the neighborhood when it was respectable has taken me there twice. I get a chuckle from watching him take off his Patek Philipe watch and putting on a cheap plastic watch before we leave his house. When I get done laughing I take off my Tag Heuer…

[Ken_Rudman]

Hi Russell, I’ve not make pastrami, but I do smoke briskets quite often.

I think Eric’s comment on the wp thread is on the mark re: temperature–Brisket cooked over too high a heat becomes tough. If you steam or boil it, you’re basically ensuring that the internal temp barely won’t go over 212 degrees (F). IIRC, it takes something like 10 hrs at < 200 for the collagen to break down into gelatin, which is why smoked brisket just falls apart when done “low and slow”. That’s too much cooking for pastrami, but if you’ve boiled/steamed the corned beef and then smoke it for 3 hours, I think you should get something less tough. Also make sure you’re slicing it across the grain–I’ve found that this makes a huge difference in texture. Now I’ll step away and let the real experts weigh in–mainly I just like to eat the stuff.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Ken,

I make both brisket and pastrami. Very different.

You mentioned cooking the “corned” beef…are you talking about the brined beef, ie, “corned”?

Lots of people think pastrami is just corned beef that has been smoked a bit, but everything I’ve read/heard says that they should be very different processes. That’s why I used a dry rub cure for 10-11 days, not a “corning”/brining process to start my pastrami.

Just curious…what you meant, though…

[Dave_Solomon]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Ken,

I make both brisket and pastrami. Very different.

You mentioned cooking the “corned” beef…are you talking about the brined beef, ie, “corned”?

Lots of people think pastrami is just corned beef that has been smoked a bit, but everything I’ve read/heard says that they should be very different processes. That’s why I used a dry rub cure for 10-11 days, not a “corning”/brining process to start my pastrami.

Just curious…what you meant, though…

My understanding is that places like Katz’s use a wet cure and Montreal smoked meat is a dry cure. I do a wet cure for my pastrami, smoke it for 12-16 hours at 225*F over hickory, cool it, then steam it for a few hours before serving it. Nearly every recipe I’ve seen for pastrami has significantly more sugar in it than I like.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Stuart, how do you perform your dry cure?

Cheers