Oxidized White Burgs - Grey Market

[CFu]

@Rick Gregory

@Kris Patten

I never said grey market WAS the cause of pre-mox, but I am wondering for those that contribute to the Wiki if you keep track of where they came from, legitimate channels, or grey market. I wonder what part less than ideal transport and storage contributes to a wine that is apparently flawed or fragile, however you want to look at it.

I will be the first to agree that just because a wine goes thru the 3-tier it doesn’t mean it was handled correctly. I can only speak for myself and what we do.

For Rick,

I pick up back vintages of wine all the time, and replace it with the only thing I can, a current vintage of the same wine. Flawed is flawed, although I wouldn’t be picking up and crediting any Macon Villages at 10 years of age, at some point the risk is yours.

Want my 99 Sauzet? My 2000? My 2000 Ramonet? All of my Colin Deleger? I get that at some point the risk is mine, but in general retailers have told me that they wont’ take back premoxed wine 6.7. 8 or more years post vintage… and I don’t really know the distributors, how to get hold of most, etc. Add to this the fact that the issue didn’t show until 6-8 years in and I’m trying to return a wine that’s fairly old. And 1996 etc even though it SHOULD still be OK can’t really be called premoxed 15 years in even if it is, in fact, just that.

well said rick.

[Kris_Patten]

@Rick Gregory

@Kris Patten

I never said grey market WAS the cause of pre-mox, but I am wondering for those that contribute to the Wiki if you keep track of where they came from, legitimate channels, or grey market. I wonder what part less than ideal transport and storage contributes to a wine that is apparently flawed or fragile, however you want to look at it.

I will be the first to agree that just because a wine goes thru the 3-tier it doesn’t mean it was handled correctly. I can only speak for myself and what we do.

For Rick,

I pick up back vintages of wine all the time, and replace it with the only thing I can, a current vintage of the same wine. Flawed is flawed, although I wouldn’t be picking up and crediting any Macon Villages at 10 years of age, at some point the risk is yours.

Want my 99 Sauzet? My 2000? My 2000 Ramonet? All of my Colin Deleger? I get that at some point the risk is mine, but in general retailers have told me that they wont’ take back premoxed wine 6.7. 8 or more years post vintage… and I don’t really know the distributors, how to get hold of most, etc. Add to this the fact that the issue didn’t show until 6-8 years in and I’m trying to return a wine that’s fairly old. And 1996 etc even though it SHOULD still be OK can’t really be called premoxed 15 years in even if it is, in fact, just that.

Way off topic, but…

I don’t sell them. But if I did i would take care of them, adn tell you to return them to the wine shop you got them at and fix it. Not really on topic, but it’s what I would do. I really have no interest in picking up old village wines, but 1er Cru and up that should be fine, I don’t have an issue fixing that. I have picked up corked White Burgs from 2001- on and replaced them with same vineyard and producer from 06, 07, or 08 whenever I can. Once again, just me.

[Kris_Patten]

As to the topic I wanted to dig at…what part does storage and transport of the wines play if any in the problem?

Are they two separate issues? Or are they inter-twined some way?

I have to imagine that if the wines are somewhat unstable, that shipping to the US can cause issues. And anyone who thinks grey market wines are impeccable is delusional…the entity who bought them here could have been careful all the way with reefers but you have no idea how the broker or distributor in Europe treated them prior, as they don’t come directly from the winery, like 3-tier imports do.

[Kris_Patten]

@Lewis Dawson

@Kris Patten

… I am wondering for those that contribute to the Wiki if you keep track of where they came from, legitimate channels, or [illegitimate] grey market… I will be the first to agree that just because a wine goes thru the 3-tier it doesn’t mean it was handled correctly. I can only speak for myself and what we do.

OK, then, what do you do? Do you sell any wine that passed through the Panama Canal? And if you do, can you assure the buyer that every bottle was shipped in a fully operational reefer? For wine imported to the East Coast, was it shipped in operating reefer, and trucked westward in a reefer? Is your warehouse refrigerated year-round, and are your delivery trucks refrigerated? And are all of your retail accounts fully protecting the wine?

Kris, you may have the correct answer to every question to give comfort to the consumer, but a great many participants in the 3-tier system do not. OTOH, I do have this comfort from the three or four direct importers who supplied the vast majority of the wine I own, and I control when and how the wine is shipped to me for the final leg of the journey.

Lew,

I totally agree. And can only control what I have dominion over. But something has to be done to restore consumer confidence, adn if I can knock storage as an issue out of the equation, and over the past 2-3 years have seen 1 or 2 bottles of White Burg returned as oxidised, I have to ask if it is part of the equation and how big a part is it.

Kris

[Carl_Steefel]

@Kris Patten

I’d be curious if out of all the White Burgs out there, that have been tracked throughout the years, and all the tastings if anyone keeps track of if they got them thru grey market or thru non-grey market (legitimate suppliers of the wine in the US)?

I have started asking local merchants if they ever get bottles of oxidized Burgs back for returns, and I get a resounding no, not that they sold, and that the oxidized Burgs they see, taste, and hear about come from grey market sources. Now, Wa., is not a market that sees as many cases of wines as Ca., NY, Texas, or IL, but as a percentage at the best retailers in Seattle don’t see oxidized wines going thru their shops, as there is little if any grey market wine in Wa. but quite a bit comes up in state from other states.

.

That is BS, more retailers denying any problem exists. I got my oxidized 2002 Fevre les Clos from the Wine House in LA, and they got theirs through the regular importer (Cliquot). But then again, they probably deny that the bottles were oxidized at all…

[Kris_Patten]

@Carl Steefel

@Kris Patten

I’d be curious if out of all the White Burgs out there, that have been tracked throughout the years, and all the tastings if anyone keeps track of if they got them thru grey market or thru non-grey market (legitimate suppliers of the wine in the US)?

I have started asking local merchants if they ever get bottles of oxidized Burgs back for returns, and I get a resounding no, not that they sold, and that the oxidized Burgs they see, taste, and hear about come from grey market sources. Now, Wa., is not a market that sees as many cases of wines as Ca., NY, Texas, or IL, but as a percentage at the best retailers in Seattle don’t see oxidized wines going thru their shops, as there is little if any grey market wine in Wa. but quite a bit comes up in state from other states.

.

That is BS, more retailers denying any problem exists. I got my oxidized 2002 Fevre les Clos from the Wine House in LA, and they got theirs through the regular importer (Cliquot). But then again, they probably deny that the bottles were oxidized at all…

Carl,

Like I said earlier, we don’t see nearly the volume of White Burgs as CA, NYC, IL, FL, adn other maor markets, so the sample size is much smaller.

Kris

[alan_weinberg]

@Carl Steefel

That is BS, more retailers denying any problem exists. I got my oxidized 2002 Fevre les Clos from the Wine House in LA, and they got theirs through the regular importer (Cliquot). But then again, they probably deny that the bottles were oxidized at all…

and there is story after story of wine being opened at the domaine, wine that has never traveled anywhere since its birth, and being hopelessly oxidized. And there is story after story of premox with wines bought at the domaine and hand-carried home, stored properly the entire time.
alan

[Eric_Ifune]

and there is story after story of wine being opened at the domaine, wine that has never traveled anywhere since its birth, and being hopelessly oxidized. And there is story after story of premox with wines bought at the domaine and hand-carried home, stored properly the entire time.

There is also different bottles from the same case which underwent the same transport and storage showing different levels of oxidation.

[Kris_Patten]

@alan weinberg

@Carl Steefel

That is BS, more retailers denying any problem exists. I got my oxidized 2002 Fevre les Clos from the Wine House in LA, and they got theirs through the regular importer (Cliquot). But then again, they probably deny that the bottles were oxidized at all…

and there is story after story of wine being opened at the domaine, wine that has never traveled anywhere since its birth, and being hopelessly oxidized. And there is story after story of premox with wines bought at the domaine and hand-carried home, stored properly the entire time.
alan

And there are countless people who have never had an oxidised White Burg, so what is that, dumb luck? Bad bottles get 20 responses and the sky is falling, good bottles get 5 responses of drink it up before it oxidises.

For me, I guess some of this comes out of the frustration that still, today in 2011, with science better than it has ever been, and technology too, there still isn’t an answer, which leads me to the fact that there isn’t one defineable reason for it, but a blend of circumstances and winemaking that have to be figured out, and soon.

[Carl_Steefel]

@Eric Ifune

and there is story after story of wine being opened at the domaine, wine that has never traveled anywhere since its birth, and being hopelessly oxidized. And there is story after story of premox with wines bought at the domaine and hand-carried home, stored properly the entire time.

There is also different bottles from the same case which underwent the same transport and storage showing different levels of oxidation.

Exactly, I have had quite a few of these.

I am certainly wary of the gray market, more so than I was. But I bridle when I see a self-serving retailer (especially one who sold me oxidized wine) saying the problem is ONLY with the gray market…

[Carl_Steefel]

@Kris Patten

@alan weinberg

@Carl Steefel

That is BS, more retailers denying any problem exists. I got my oxidized 2002 Fevre les Clos from the Wine House in LA, and they got theirs through the regular importer (Cliquot). But then again, they probably deny that the bottles were oxidized at all…

and there is story after story of wine being opened at the domaine, wine that has never traveled anywhere since its birth, and being hopelessly oxidized. And there is story after story of premox with wines bought at the domaine and hand-carried home, stored properly the entire time.
alan

And there are countless people who have never had an oxidised White Burg, so what is that, dumb luck? Bad bottles get 20 responses and the sky is falling, good bottles get 5 responses of drink it up before it oxidises.
.

Now this is hard to believe…

[Kris_Patten]

Carl,

I hate to burst anyone’s bubble, but this board is far from the center of the wine universe.

Frankly not everyone likes them aged, like collector’s here do, there are all sorts of reasons for it. It doesn’t change the fact that if you want to age White Burgs, oxidation is an issue that needs to be addressed, and right now a lot of collector’s steer clear of them, and I have to be wary of selling them to said collector/wine shop collector’s shop at, or I have the scenario Rick stated above.

[ybarselah]

@alan weinberg

don’t assume that gray market equates with poor transportation or storage. I can cite examples of atrocious handling by “legitimate importers and distributors.” And I know many grays who take great care in transporting . . .

alan

i’ll go a step further and say that of all the problems i’ve had with wines, it’s always been with legit channels. my grey wines are always pristine.

[Carl_Steefel]

@Kris Patten

Carl,

I hate to burst anyone’s bubble, but this board is far from the center of the wine universe.

Frankly not everyone likes them aged, like collector’s here do, there are all sorts of reasons for it. It doesn’t change the fact that if you want to age White Burgs, oxidation is an issue that needs to be addressed, and right now a lot of collector’s steer clear of them, and I have to be wary of selling them to said collector/wine shop collector’s shop at, or I have the scenario Rick stated above.

I don’t know if I would consider 2002 Chablis as “aged”, and oxidation is fairly common there.

I am not sure that that many more oxidized notes get published than non-oxidized. It is just that the Board (and other Boards) take little notice of favorable notes, so maybe we should blame the readers, not the posters. I posted on three beautiful white Burgundies on the Tanzer Board and only one response.

Anyway, my point was (in response to your original question) was that you cannot blame the problem just on the gray market, although there is certainly reason to be suspicious of that import route. And that I have personal experience with a direct import retailer denying there was a problem with wines that brought in and then sold to me. So one has to wonder whether some of these direct importer types are not making self serving comments (in addition to making factually inaccurate statements).