Oxidized White Burgs - Grey Market

I’d be curious if out of all the White Burgs out there, that have been tracked throughout the years, and all the tastings if anyone keeps track of if they got them thru grey market or thru non-grey market (legitimate suppliers of the wine in the US)?

I have started asking local merchants if they ever get bottles of oxidized Burgs back for returns, and I get a resounding no, not that they sold, and that the oxidized Burgs they see, taste, and hear about come from grey market sources. Now, Wa., is not a market that sees as many cases of wines as Ca., NY, Texas, or IL, but as a percentage at the best retailers in Seattle don’t see oxidized wines going thru their shops, as there is little if any grey market wine in Wa. but quite a bit comes up in state from other states.

Now I know this can’t be all of the problem, but I wonders what part it plays, as one of the “poster children”, Jadot, is one of the most grey marketed wines in the US, as prices from Kobrand are not competitive for retailers/consumers with what can be had grey market.

What part is provenance in this whole nightmare that is premox.

I don’t know how significant of a part it would play. Premox is a different profile than say heat damage or mishandling that people occasionally associate with oxidation.

the grey market imports are just a red herring. The true problem is located in burgundy. I think that has been discussed enough to be established.

Whilst I pretty much agree with this, I’m not sure though that you can’t 100% rule out poor storage as a small part of the equation for oxidation/pre mox coming on even earlier…

Somehow, those that bought/stored since release in ideal conditions still seem to have less issues…circumstantial, I know, but there it is…

Oh boy! another premox thread.

One of our problems as a group is WE ALMOST NEVER RETURN A PREMOXED WINE (except in a restaurant). I think the problem may have come to a head faster if we did (had).

Look at DonCornutt’s last yearly white burg tasting thread (the mostly Montrachet one). there was discussion about the provenance issue. I think it’s an important factor, but it’s not the primary problem. Poor provenance seems to accelerate the problem but not create it.

don’t assume that gray market equates with poor transportation or storage. I can cite examples of atrocious handling by “legitimate importers and distributors.” And I know many grays who take great care in transporting . . .

alan

If I had a dollar $ for everytime someone said something like that. Over on eBob was a guy, George ____? who had Williams-Selyem & Hacienda del Rio from the beginning purchased on release from northern Calif and stored only at his place, and every poster who could come on eBob and say how this or that W-S wine has peaked or is past drinking window. George would tell them his wines from his stock were all just fine. For ever $ wineweenies my friend knows of, some with multi-thousand bottle collections that told him the ‘95 W-S are over the hill. It’s not like W-S are super fragile and unstable "no-sulfur’ added wines. It’s just that they are not tanks of ability to resist abuse like some bad boy big wine varietal.

All of my original W-S orders I always picked up directly from the winery on visits there and hand-carried to my home in So. Cal via automobile. But I have had ordered W-S from Acker that must have come from a cold, cold cellar from that very same '95 vintage more recently that some said was past prime, and those Acker bottles were even younger, more primary than mine!

If we make an assumption that for whatever reasons the Wh. Burgs from 95 and on are more fragile than before, say because of lower additions of sulfur, then yes any conditions that the wines are exposed to can lead to them being more advanced and/or completely oxidized before we think they should. If those Wh. Burgs are so fragile and not merely susceptible to oxidation absent external conditions, failed cork closure; then where they were shipped from or handled along the way will make no difference. But I don’t necessarily consider it a red herring, as handling along the way is important, imo and I’m sure Don Cornwell thinks so too.

At present we simply don’t know. Look at the Lapierre Morgon, no sulfur and it’s presumably less fragile being a red wine. And yet before he died Lapierre was shipping a low sulfured bottling along with the no sulfur added. The no sulfur added is said to need to be cellared at a low temperature to avoid damage. Back before Parker’s Rhone book, many a Rhone was sterile filtered and plenty of sulfur added for foreign markets to make the wines as stable and trouble free. Insipid maybe, but they don’t premox- at least I have not read anything about them :smiley:

I remember Kermit Lynch (still have some of his old newsletters I can scan up from the early 90’s) being on that all natural wine kick, big proponent of that. And there were rumblings, speculation that these Rhone and other producers that Kermit imported, where simply telling Kermit they had no sulfur added, and behind his back they filtered (a little) and added sulfur(a little, not enough to stamp out the flavors but enough to make a less fragile wine). Who can say. You know, like Parker used to show up at a Rhone producers cellars, and they would give him a special concentrated cuvee not telling him that the rest of the wine they bottled was not this that he tasted, just so they could get big scores from the P man. That is what has been rumored for a long time…wine producers giving people, importers or critics what those consumers think they want, while bottling something else for the commercial markets. Dishonest wine producers? Now there’s a concept :stuck_out_tongue:

In addition to the responses above, why do you say that only wine coming through three tiers is legitimate? I believe direct imports are equally legitimate, and much less likely to be abused in transit in my experience. And BTW, the grey market was not invented in 1997. The problem lies in Burgundy. This is a red herring, as stated above.

Kris - your information about the prevalence premoxed burgs sold via WA retailers is incorrect. I’ve had direct import, 3 tier and grey market wines all poxed. And yes, wines I bought via retailers in the state. What people SAY doesn’t matter. Plus, frankly, a lot of bottles don’t get returned. Once I know I can’t get my money back after 7, 8, 10 years… why would I tell a retailer about each new poxed bottle? Why do you think it’s so annoying - I can’t get my money back. The entire supply chain is just fine - the end buyer, ME, I’m the one who gets fucked. Every other tier could care less. You all got to keep the money. Sorry if I sound bitter but, well, I am. I bought wines that everyone said were amazing and should age beuatifully, they started falling apart and I bore 100% of the loss.

At least with the 3 tier system in the US there is no guarantee that the conditions are better than what I have imported over from the UK/FR via grey market. In fact, many distributors (until recently) are not using cooled trucks to transport the wine as it cross crosses over the country. I would even be more willing to say that in comparison to the 3 tier system, having the grey market wines might have even better storage conditions in some cases.

and to tack on to what Rick and one other person has said, I have never complained about a premox bottle. I think that’s with a lot of people

A grey mkt importer alan, that buys but does not actually taste (or perhaps is dishonest) some coveted wine they are importing, it matters not that they brought them into your country in a reefer. From the PM I sent you, Wine Cellars Ltd. of Briarcliff, NYC (http://www.winecellarsltd.com), and previously Atherton (though Cornwell contends more recently they are reliable). They could buy from any source, you have no way of knowing what that source was. And if a wine predisposed to premox, if but slowly was hit by poor storage before acquired by such an importer, 5yrs or 10yrs down the road your precious wh Burg is premox’d, the end result is still the same. David Russell told me Atherton used to buy rare wines form a Paris wholesale operation that had an warehouse in Paris that was not temperature regulated, got quite hot in the summer. So what if Atherton or other grey’s ship in reefers if they don’t make sure of the provenance or even care?

I guess Alan wasn’t around the Wine House in the late 80’s, but I’ll bet Don Cornwell was. as was Somm to the stars, ponytail, white T-shirt wearing young Christian Navarro working there under his mentor Larry Siebel. There was a cache of pristine Leroy from the 1950’s that included the legendary '55 Leroy, in the original wood cases, paper/hay individually wrapped bottles. These were of course late-release Leroy as prior to the 1960’s original release Leroy bottles had a completely different style of label than the do now. From Atherton, shipped reefer containers, supposedly from an English cellar. A few weeks after I first saw them, they were all gone. I asked Larry about them, he said they opened a few for the clients and they did not impress, he said he thought there was something wrong with them and returned them all to Atherton. I’m quite sure Atherton resold these to someone else, the emperor wears no clothes syndrome is alive and well with the majority of wine collectors who are simply in denial… I fear.

David Russell also told me, that he had seen trucks covered with tarps, carrying unrefrigerated loads of Leroy wines headed for the export ports of Bordeaux area. Take with grain of salt, don’t have any proof of any of these ‘issues’.

Everyone here on WB is singing the praises of Dujac now (wasn’t the case back in the early 90’s) as being a superlative producer. I bought a $110 bottle of 1985 Dujac Bonne Mares from the Wine House in WLA, 6mo after ‘official’ channels sold out. Was imported from a Swiss company. Opened that Parker 97pt (highest rated Dujac) wine in the late 90’s- it was extra boring, nothing at all about it warranted a high score. It wasn’t spoiled/oxidized just nothing interesting about it a $40 Burg could not provide. I suspect poor storage conditions somewhere along the lines for a less that stellar performance. Much the same for ‘other’ wines.

Back in the Fall of 1993, I attended a small tasting (might post up an ancient tasting note) in Riverside that was Bipin Desai’s local tasting group, he invited me to attended as I was there to pickup a bottle of 1985 Ramonet Montrachet I bought from him—actually was to pick up 2 btls but I decided and I didn’t like the very lose capsule on one and declined. No import label on this one, had the green French tax seal on top the capsule. I didn’t ask Bipin where he obtained the bottles, what his sources were as the price was $100 less than current mkt prices. Now that paragon of notoriously demanding and finicky palate (like mine) Burghound rated more recently that '85 Monty as 98pts! The bottle I bought from Bipin, I opened for Burt Williams in early 1994 or perhaps fall 94. He opened a Peter Michael Chard that had the blue or red dot on the label signifying Helen Turley had made it. The Turley was not bad, the Monty was really quite underwhelming for what I expected to be a ‘wow’ wine. Had some funky notes to it that I had not, could not remember tasting in a Chard before. Burt, of much more precise and better palate noted something along the lines of saying it was mercaptans we were smelling/tasting in that wine (well Burghound, why didn’t you notice that?), further telling me that Steve Kistler likes to get that quality in his Kistler Chards to give them that Burgundian taste…and no, Burt was not joking! :smiley: (at that time).

+1

I have something substantive to add. I can no longer afford to buy in quantity and cellar these wines. I get to taste many very good to great wines on release and they usually are pretty damn good at the time, albeit a bit young. I also don’t sell enough of these wines to collectors who are going to cellar them for long periods of time, and the buyers of the top wine such as Ramonet, Niellon, Domaine Leflaive or DRC Montrachet are not the types who try to return bad bottles. So frankly I don’t give a shit about this any more. neener

FWIW, I did buy a bunch of 1995 White Burgs and that was the last vintage I ever bought and cellared in quantity, but mostly 1er Cru. 2-3cs total. I drank them all up by 2004. I had both premoxes and pristine wines from the same cases so you can’t blame that on storage or transport…

Agree, was mostly directing this comment to the heat damaged/mishandling portion of it…

John. I can’t take credit for Don Cornwell’s tasting. He has light years of expertise with oxidation problems.
I can tell you that I have had less problems with grey/gray market wines than locally bought ones. I think provenance is a major issue and storage to me is the biggest problem.

It’s not a black and white issue. If you’re buying bottles for way less than going rates it’s a pretty safe bet you’re not buying wine that has been handled with the utmost of care. Wine can come from a multitude of sources, and get here a dizzying number of ways.

Wine shipping and handling has always been problematic (though I think there’s been some improvement), but the very high percentage of prematurely oxidized bottles is a new phenomenon, starting, most seem to agree, with the 1995s. As noted above, for the very most part the fuse was lit in the winemakers’ own cellars.

Your post has sparked a possibility in my mind.

What if 1995 was when reefer trucks came in vogue and also when premox became prevalent. Connection!?!? Did I just flip the premox world upside down!?

Off to edit the white burg wiki cause I just found the breakthrough!!!

(such bright ideas I come up with while walking my dog for his morning poo)

I never said grey market WAS the cause of pre-mox, but I am wondering for those that contribute to the Wiki if you keep track of where they came from, legitimate channels, or grey market. I wonder what part less than ideal transport and storage contributes to a wine that is apparently flawed or fragile, however you want to look at it.

I will be the first to agree that just because a wine goes thru the 3-tier it doesn’t mean it was handled correctly. I can only speak for myself and what we do.

For Rick,

I pick up back vintages of wine all the time, and replace it with the only thing I can, a current vintage of the same wine. Flawed is flawed, although I wouldn’t be picking up and crediting any Macon Villages at 10 years of age, at some point the risk is yours.

OK, then, what do you do? Do you sell any wine that passed through the Panama Canal? And if you do, can you assure the buyer that every bottle was shipped in a fully operational reefer? For wine imported to the East Coast, was it shipped in operating reefer, and trucked westward in a reefer? Is your warehouse refrigerated year-round, and are your delivery trucks refrigerated? And are all of your retail accounts fully protecting the wine?

Kris, you may have the correct answer to every question to give comfort to the consumer, but a great many participants in the 3-tier system do not. OTOH, I do have this comfort from the three or four direct importers who supplied the vast majority of the wine I own, and I control when and how the wine is shipped to me for the final leg of the journey.

Want my 99 Sauzet? My 2000? My 2000 Ramonet? All of my Colin Deleger? I get that at some point the risk is mine, but in general retailers have told me that they wont’ take back premoxed wine 6.7. 8 or more years post vintage… and I don’t really know the distributors, how to get hold of most, etc. Add to this the fact that the issue didn’t show until 6-8 years in and I’m trying to return a wine that’s fairly old. And 1996 etc even though it SHOULD still be OK can’t really be called premoxed 15 years in even if it is, in fact, just that.