Oregon aging rule of thumb

[Todd_Hamina]

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

And JP goes back to 85, so I can’t think of anyone else going back that far. Steve is 92, and Vlossak goes back to the 80’s. Matt Kinney of McKinlay pre-dates Steve(in Oregon, with his Calera years added in Steve may be the highest number of vintages).

If somebody has a long history of making wine, then the pressure is on to send it each time. This is different than having a great local brewer advise to keep the wines in a fridge so they don’t get wonky.

[Jim_Anderson]

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

Depends how you look at experience. I could argue that making far more wine across multiple AVAs and vineyards for less time adds up to more winemaking experience than making far less wine from a small handful of vineyards essentially tucked into a 1 mile stretch of road in the same AVA.

By that standard there are likely many winemakers with more experience than JP.

I don’t know that making more wine every vintage counts for me.

You guys are the gold standard for mid-sized wineries making >10,000 cases as if you were a <5000 case winery. In my opinion, literally no one does that as well as you.

To be fair to John, he’s experimented and/or produced a huge range of wine styles from the early Essencia and Passito bottlings to dry crisp aromatic whites, to classical Chardonnay and Pinot Noirs. For Chardonnay, the multi-clonal planting at Clos Electrique was way ahead of everyone else. And when most producers were bombing at Chardonnay, John was killing it. When Dominque Lafon arrived, John had been killing it with Chardonnay for so many years that he was spawning the next generation of Chardonnay producers (Arterberry-Maresh, Crowley, Westrey, and my own first work).

But some of JPs Pinot Noirs are reductive to a point beyond my ability to enjoy. That’s why I don’t like to contemplate best, wine is too subjective.

I think there is a fine balance. Certainly I am not attempting to discredit John’s experience dating back to 1984. There were things that went on from 1984-1993~ that are experiential in a way that cannot be accurately quantified in the here and now. In Oregon, there’s little of that left (still functioning anyway) and that sort of second wave era is as much a defining point in the state as the 10 years prior. Many of the names mentioned here came from that 80s era and have wineries that still are standard bearers in some way or another to this day.

I do think there is a point where cumulative production along with the nature of that production exceeds the simple number of vintages in terms of a wholesale, “what do you know” kind of thing. We could take it to absurdist levels in terms of production at either end. I don’t think making 150,000 cases in 2 vintages is some quantitative experiential existence but I also don’t think making 8 barrels of wine from 1 vineyard 35 times equates to something perhaps in the middle of those two. Manny Mota had 20 years in the majors (18, really) but only had 4,227 plate appearances. At some point a dude with 10 years in the bigs and 6,500 plate appearances is the more experienced hitter. He may not have all the institutional knowledge that MM had but he’s seen 50% more live action stuff and at some point there’s a tipping point.

That’s all I am getting at. Probably goes back to the Tiny Wineries of Oregon thread a bit.

[Rick_Allen]

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

And JP goes back to 85, so I can’t think of anyone else going back that far. Steve is 92, and Vlossak goes back to the 80’s. Matt Kinney of McKinlay pre-dates Steve(in Oregon, with his Calera years added in Steve may be the highest number of vintages).

JP made an 83/84 in the space across the street from my Brewery (now a company that makes rubber mats). He also worked for Carneros Creek for a number of years before coming to Oregon. In the early 80s, 10th Avenue in McMinnville had David Lett, John Paul, and Fred Arterberry all making wine within a block of each other.

Good to see a Lett mentioned. Jason isn’t a slouch at making wine, and he’s been doing it in some fashion since he was about 8.

[Todd_Hamina]

I just like seeing you riled up some Jim.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

My top ten:

Anna Matzinger
Kelley Fox
Veronique Drouhin
Bryce Bagnall
Dave Paige
David Lett
Doug Tunnell
Gary Andrus
Jim Anderson
Marcus Goodfellow
Steve Doerner

I would have included Don, the original winemaker at Adelsheim, if I knew how to spell his last name. But I did not because if the facility gets buggy under your watch… no list for you. The order is alphabetized by first name, Ladies first.

I appreciate the mention Todd. Very much so. And Anna Matzinger is a great call.

I struggled with whether to put Veronique in my earlier post. She seems a no-brainer, but there has always been a boots on the ground winemaker at DDO as well as Veronique. Ultimately, I couldn’t do it but I am glad you did.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

And JP goes back to 85, so I can’t think of anyone else going back that far. Steve is 92, and Vlossak goes back to the 80’s. Matt Kinney of McKinlay pre-dates Steve(in Oregon, with his Calera years added in Steve may be the highest number of vintages).

JP made an 83/84 in the space across the street from my Brewery (now a company that makes rubber mats). He also worked for Carneros Creek for a number of years before coming to Oregon. In the early 80s, 10th Avenue in McMinnville had David Lett, John Paul, and Fred Arterberry all making wine within a block of each other.

Good to see a Lett mentioned. Jason isn’t a slouch at making wine, and he’s been doing it in some fashion since he was about 8.

Jason is no slouch at all. I avoided mentioning any of the group that started around the millinium, but many of my favorite winemakers, including Jason, are in that group.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Depends how you look at experience. I could argue that making far more wine across multiple AVAs and vineyards for less time adds up to more winemaking experience than making far less wine from a small handful of vineyards essentially tucked into a 1 mile stretch of road in the same AVA.

By that standard there are likely many winemakers with more experience than JP.

I don’t know that making more wine every vintage counts for me.

You guys are the gold standard for mid-sized wineries making >10,000 cases as if you were a <5000 case winery. In my opinion, literally no one does that as well as you.

To be fair to John, he’s experimented and/or produced a huge range of wine styles from the early Essencia and Passito bottlings to dry crisp aromatic whites, to classical Chardonnay and Pinot Noirs. For Chardonnay, the multi-clonal planting at Clos Electrique was way ahead of everyone else. And when most producers were bombing at Chardonnay, John was killing it. When Dominque Lafon arrived, John had been killing it with Chardonnay for so many years that he was spawning the next generation of Chardonnay producers (Arterberry-Maresh, Crowley, Westrey, and my own first work).

But some of JPs Pinot Noirs are reductive to a point beyond my ability to enjoy. That’s why I don’t like to contemplate best, wine is too subjective.

I think there is a fine balance. Certainly I am not attempting to discredit John’s experience dating back to 1984. There were things that went on from 1984-1993~ that are experiential in a way that cannot be accurately quantified in the here and now. In Oregon, there’s little of that left (still functioning anyway) and that sort of second wave era is as much a defining point in the state as the 10 years prior. Many of the names mentioned here came from that 80s era and have wineries that still are standard bearers in some way or another to this day.

I do think there is a point where cumulative production along with the nature of that production exceeds the simple number of vintages in terms of a wholesale, “what do you know” kind of thing. We could take it to absurdist levels in terms of production at either end. I don’t think making 150,000 cases in 2 vintages is some quantitative experiential existence but I also don’t think making 8 barrels of wine from 1 vineyard 35 times equates to something perhaps in the middle of those two. Manny Mota had 20 years in the majors (18, really) but only had 4,227 plate appearances. At some point a dude with 10 years in the bigs and 6,500 plate appearances is the more experienced hitter. He may not have all the institutional knowledge that MM had but he’s seen 50% more live action stuff and at some point there’s a tipping point.

That’s all I am getting at. Probably goes back to the Tiny Wineries of Oregon thread a bit.

I agree with you, and it’s notable that John Thomas name is nowhere to be seen so far.

But for every PGC and Cristom, there are 100 wineries making 20,000 cases where there’s a formula for production and the winemakers seem content to just blast through harvest and “fix” things with a few extra trips to the winery supply store.

I don’t think it’s production size, although Sam Tannehill and Cheryl Francis might be on this list for all of us if A to Z hadn’t taken off and absorbed their careers.

I think it’s the mental edge you bring to the process that each wine has to be the best that it can be. I do think that is easier for productions at 2000-5000 cases, but that wineries like PGC and Cristom deserve the extra points for doing it at 15,000-18,000 cases.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

My top ten:
Anna Matzinger
Kelley Fox
Veronique Drouhin
Bryce Bagnall
Dave Paige
David Lett
Doug Tunnell
Gary Andrus
Jim Anderson
Marcus Goodfellow
Steve Doerner
I would have included Don, the original winemaker at Adelsheim, if I knew how to spell his last name. But I did not because if the facility gets buggy under your watch… no list for you. The order is alphabetized by first name, Ladies first.

Have not seen Anna mentioned in a long time. Loved my first tastes of her Matzinger-Davies Pinots. Sadly, never really got to know Bryce’s wines. Forgot about Veronique (still have a crush on her, and the wines can be excellent). I’ve never really understood how actively she is/was involved in the day-to-day winemaking? 1988. She’s been at it a while…essentially her whole life.

Marcus has a great list. Once you open it up to “best”, things expand quickly and justifiably. I was trying to limit my thoughts to OR winemakers that are still making wines and started in the 1980s…or perhaps the very early 90s with a lot of previous experience. Steve D started at Cristom in 1992, but a dozen years at Calera before that.

RT

[Todd_Hamina]

I have three dead guys too, so I’m sure there’s a chance they could get edged out someday.

[rfelthoven]

There was a time I was a Cameron-ite, as Eric at Sec calls them, but now when I open his wines I’m often put off. Bummer.

[Brady_Daniels]

it’s notable that John Thomas name is nowhere to be seen so far.

Why is John Thomas not mentioned? His wines are somewhat cult-y. Past vintages are very expensive if you can find them. I’ve been working on his 2018 for a few nights, and I’d really appreciate some context.

I understand why a fellow winemaker might refuse to answer this.

[Brady_Daniels]

There was a time I was a Cameron-ite, as Eric at Sec calls them, but now when I open his wines I’m often put off. Bummer.

This is another I find interesting. Is the off putting attribute the “Cameron Funk?”

Speaking of which, is the funk reduction, Brett, or something else?

Also, is the funk apparent on his younger wines, or does it increase with age?

Finally, is the funk a function of riper vintages?

I absolutely picked up the funk on the 2012 Clos Electrique, but loved all other aspects of the wine.

I thought the 2017 Clos Electrique was pretty clean and loved it enough that I went back for more. I hope I don’t need to drink it all by age eight before it goes the full Pegau.

[ChrisJames]

I’ve heard it is a produce of reduction. Some anecdotal stuff - I’ve only drank his entry level reds. I went through a case of 2016 Ribbon Ridge over two years. The first bottle was funky; the last bottle was equally funky. I loved it. The 2016 DH Reserve is really good now and mildly funky. The 2017 Dundee Hills seems less funky by comparison. The 2018 Dundee Hills seems to show no funk at all and is just delicious. I can’t really draw any pattern conclusions from this.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

The Cameron Funk has been a topic of many discussions. I believe it’s reduction…but possibly not your garden variety inorganic sulfide. I find that it almost always blows off, but it can literally take days with decanting. Usually a couple of hours is sufficient. In my experience, it’s there at the start and may or may not lessen appreciably with bottle age. Not an issue with the Non-Pinots, IMHO.

John Thomas makes excellent wines. I believe his wines first came on the scene around 1992 after planting his vineyard (reportedly himself) in 1984. He doesn’t quite have the winemaking experience of JP or Steve Doerner or a number of the others mentioned.

RT

[Scott_Tallman]

it’s notable that John Thomas name is nowhere to be seen so far.

Why is John Thomas not mentioned? His wines are somewhat cult-y. Past vintages are very expensive if you can find them. I’ve been working on his 2018 for a few nights, and I’d really appreciate some context.

I understand why a fellow winemaker might refuse to answer this.

First off, this has been a wonderful and fascinating thread. Thanks to the winemakers for sharing their thoughts/experiences.

To answer your Q, I’ll assume it’s because John only makes one wine from a small plot in a single AVA. I’ve really enjoyed his Pinot and think it is a unique and compelling expression of WV pinot, but understand why others may not put him in the upper echelon based on his limited focus. FWIW, I doubt he’d much care.

As for Cameron, I’m a huge fan and readily admit for my tastes it really floats my boat, specifically Clos Electrique Pinot & Chard. In my experience, the level of funk is not consistent, so it’s a bit of crap shoot. I’m not averse to funk, and have yet to drink a bottle I’ve found problematic. My only quibble is in some vintages the Chardonnay can be a touch too tropical for my tastes, but when it’s on (‘17 is a great example), it’s my favorite OR Chardonnay.

As a consumer, I have no insight as to who are the top tier winemakers other than to identify who makes the wines I enjoy the most. Pretty much everyone I could think of has been mentioned, but no one scratches my itch across a large swathe of different bottles/varietals more than JP and Marcus.

[ChrisJames]

For all the talk of winemakers being artisans, I have noticed that many of my favorite Oregon winemakers (who weren’t raised in winemaking as a family business) have science backgrounds. This may mean something or nothing at all.

Marcus Goodfellow – Kinesiology
Kelley Fox – Biochemistry and Biophysics
John Paul – Marine Biochemistry
Jim Anderson – Anthropology/Economics
David Lett had a Philosophy degree and was studying to be a Dentist when he got sidetracked in Napa….
Todd Hamina – described as a Mad Scientist

I’m sure there are others.

[Jim_Anderson]

For all the talk of winemakers being artisans, I have noticed that many of my favorite Oregon winemakers (who weren’t raised in winemaking as a family business) have science backgrounds. This may mean something or nothing at all.

Marcus Goodfellow – Kinesiology
Kelley Fox – Biochemistry and Biophysics
John Paul – Marine Biochemistry
Jim Anderson – Anthropology/Economics
David Lett had a Philosophy degree and was studying to be a Dentist when I got sidetracked in Napa….
Todd Hamina – described as a Mad Scientist

I’m sure there are others.

I was shocked to see my name there! I did take some Physical Anthropology at the UO and those were always interesting and sometimes great courses. Mostly it was that BS Cultural Anthropology! I came to Ec late in the game largely because I really liked and was amazed by an Ec 101 prof at the UO. The other day in a sub-forum that will not be named I mentioned that I had to in my senior year take a Concepts in Math class and a History of Physics course (it was harder than I anticipated) to get my required 2 credits in math and science at Bowdoin necessary to graduate. I did audit an Astronomy course at the UO as well.

I’m not so sure Economics even qualifies as a science these days so I will take this all with a grain of salt and be happy to be included with the list of people who actually had to attend classes and study hard while in college.

[ChrisJames]

For all the talk of winemakers being artisans, I have noticed that many of my favorite Oregon winemakers (who weren’t raised in winemaking as a family business) have science backgrounds. This may mean something or nothing at all.

Marcus Goodfellow – Kinesiology
Kelley Fox – Biochemistry and Biophysics
John Paul – Marine Biochemistry
Jim Anderson – Anthropology/Economics
David Lett had a Philosophy degree and was studying to be a Dentist when I got sidetracked in Napa….
Todd Hamina – described as a Mad Scientist

I’m sure there are others.

I was shocked to see my name there! I did take some Physical Anthropology at the UO and those were always interesting and sometimes great courses. Mostly it was that BS Cultural Anthropology! I came to Ec late in the game largely because I really liked and was amazed by an Ec 101 prof at the UO. The other day in a sub-forum that will not be named I mentioned that I had to in my senior year take a Concepts in Math class and a History of Physics course (it was harder than I anticipated) to get my required 2 credits in math and science at Bowdoin necessary to graduate. I did audit an Astronomy course at the UO as well.

I’m not so sure Economics even qualifies as a science these days so I will take this all with a grain of salt and be happy to be included with the list of people who actually had to attend classes and study hard while in college.

Ah Economics - The Dismal Science.

Really it does mean something: a scientific mind is observant, insightful, willing to experiment and take calculated risks, always eager to learn more, and not declare crap as a unique expression. You fully qualify. No flattery intended.

[JDavisRoby]

A few bottles of 1983 Ponzi PN on Wine Bid tonight. Who here will grab them? Currently $40.

[James_Lyon]

Why is John Thomas not mentioned? His wines are somewhat cult-y. Past vintages are very expensive if you can find them. I’ve been working on his 2018 for a few nights, and I’d really appreciate some context.

Brady, I wouldn’t fret over the exclusion of John Thomas on any particular winemaker list. As Tallman and others have mentioned, Thomas is the teeny tiniest of wineries in the WV. Thomas has an annual production of 400-500 cases of Pinot Noir and grows some Nebbiolo on his estate vineyard. Also produced some Chardonnay 20+ years ago, but those vines were replaced a number of years ago. Thomas is a small winery that produces one available wine from the estate. It’s no big deal.

Now, if someone was to ask for a list of 10 (or 20) quintessential Oregon wines, I’m sure that Thomas would get a number of mentions. This list has kinda been mentioned in previous Oregon threads, but never compiled to my knowledge.

I know that Todd H. was having some fun with the list and it’s always nice to generate some thought and discussion with these topics. Like Marcus, I tend to shy away from best and opt for personal favorites. Also, for whatever reason, I generally associate best with current or active versus inactive, but I can see someone enjoying a bottle of 1993 Eyrie South Block Reserve Pinot today and saying that’s the best wine and hence David Lett is the best winemaker. I’m just picking at Todd H.

I’ve been fortunate to enjoy my fair share of great wines from the many invaluable Oregon producers that participate on this forum. You are my favorites and I appreciate your efforts.