Oregon aging rule of thumb

[Todd_Hamina]

Everyone is different. I would not put Cameron or John Paul in my top ten.

[JDavisRoby]

Well, Steve is the best winemaker in Oregon, possibly the New World.

But you gotta like stems…and you gotta be patient!

RT

It is important to open the bottle at the right time.

The world is awash in swill for the impatient.

I can’t wait to use this line some night when I can finally have people over and I’m half-cocked and somebody wants to open a not-quite mature bottle.

[David_Bu3ker]

Well, Steve is the best winemaker in Oregon, possibly the New World.

Maybe Oregon. New world? There are some other contenders.

[Rodrigo_B]

But you gotta like stems…and you gotta be patient!

RT

It is important to open the bottle at the right time.

The world is awash in swill for the impatient.

I can’t wait to use this line some night when I can finally have people over and I’m half-cocked and somebody wants to open a not-quite mature bottle.

Todd’s line is going to stick with me. Like you, it’s one of those that I’m going to keep in my back pocket eagerly awaiting for the opportunity to use it, for surely it is incredibly apt.

[JDavisRoby]

It is important to open the bottle at the right time.

The world is awash in swill for the impatient.

I can’t wait to use this line some night when I can finally have people over and I’m half-cocked and somebody wants to open a not-quite mature bottle.

Todd’s line is going to stick with me. Like you, it’s one of those that I’m going to keep in my back pocket eagerly awaiting for the opportunity to use it, for surely it is incredibly apt.

And the slurred speech that accompanies my uttering of this phrase shall be quite impressive.

[Rodrigo_B]

And the slurred speech that accompanies my uttering of this phrase shall be quite impressive.

That is the true Achilles’ heel of the phrase, the (inevitable) inebriated articulation of it negates all eloquence one may hope to gain from uttering it

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

And the slurred speech that accompanies my uttering of this phrase shall be quite impressive.

That is the true Achilles’ heel of the phrase, the (inevitable) inebriated articulation of it negates all eloquence one may hope to gain from uttering it

Perhaps, but it’s also where the opportunity for true greatness lies. The ability to slur out beauty you will have no recollection of later is a gift(until you turn 50…then stop).

And that is a gem, so as long as you have it correctly in your memory, you will be golden. Now you know why Steve Doerner may be the biggest influence on my Pinot Noirs, but Todd was the best to share winery space with.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Well, Steve is the best winemaker in Oregon, possibly the New World.

But you gotta like stems…and you gotta be patient!

RT

It is important to open the bottle at the right time.

The world is awash in swill for the impatient.

You are the Hemingway of the Oregon wine industry. Short and talented(but not sweet).

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

But you gotta like stems…and you gotta be patient!
RT

It is important to open the bottle at the right time. The world is awash in swill for the impatient.

For the record, I think it’s a jump ball between Steve and John Paul. If experience is the tiebreaker, Steve may well get the nod. Both have wonderful idiosyncratic styles IMHO.

RT

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

I’m completely ignorant if winemaking outside of Oregon so I can’t speak to the new world.

[Rodrigo_B]

And the slurred speech that accompanies my uttering of this phrase shall be quite impressive.

That is the true Achilles’ heel of the phrase, the (inevitable) inebriated articulation of it negates all eloquence one may hope to gain from uttering it

Perhaps, but it’s also where the opportunity for true greatness lies. The ability to slur out beauty you will have no recollection of later is a gift(until you turn 50…then stop).

And that is a gem, so as long as you have it correctly in your memory, you will be golden. Now you know why Steve Doerner may be the biggest influence on my Pinot Noirs, but Todd was the best to share winery space with.

I agree. It’s a fine line between slurring beauty and putting your foot in your mouth though…

[Todd_Hamina]

Best of luck to you all.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

That is the true Achilles’ heel of the phrase, the (inevitable) inebriated articulation of it negates all eloquence one may hope to gain from uttering it

Perhaps, but it’s also where the opportunity for true greatness lies. The ability to slur out beauty you will have no recollection of later is a gift(until you turn 50…then stop).

And that is a gem, so as long as you have it correctly in your memory, you will be golden. Now you know why Steve Doerner may be the biggest influence on my Pinot Noirs, but Todd was the best to share winery space with.

I agree. It’s a fine line between slurring beauty and putting your foot in your mouth though…

Yep, and a life well lived should be able to tell stories from both sides of the line.

[J.Durham]

Very much enjoying this thread. Continuing my run of older St Innocent’s we had this one over the weekend. I had higher expectations given the praise of the '93 vintage, but this was more “interesting” than anything and while considerably better than the recent '94 Freedom Hill, was well below the '95 StInnocent Brickhouse

• 1993 St. Innocent Pinot Noir Seven Springs Vineyard - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley (2/27/2021)
  Very much alive though there’s probably some decline here. Moderate bricking with a mild brownish crimson color. Nose is mostly loam and mushroom with some black cherry notes mixed in. Smooth resolved palate, turning a bit sour on the finish—which is a bit short showing it’s age. Still, it’s clearly aged gracefully though probably in a slow decline. Over time showed some strong herbaceous aromas. (90 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

[JDavisRoby]

That is the true Achilles’ heel of the phrase, the (inevitable) inebriated articulation of it negates all eloquence one may hope to gain from uttering it

Perhaps, but it’s also where the opportunity for true greatness lies. The ability to slur out beauty you will have no recollection of later is a gift(until you turn 50…then stop).

And that is a gem, so as long as you have it correctly in your memory, you will be golden. Now you know why Steve Doerner may be the biggest influence on my Pinot Noirs, but Todd was the best to share winery space with.

I agree. It’s a fine line between slurring beauty and putting your foot in your mouth though…

I am pretty sure my wife thinks I live on this line.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

[Jim_Anderson]

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

Depends how you look at experience. I could argue that making far more wine across multiple AVAs and vineyards for less time adds up to more winemaking experience than making far less wine from a small handful of vineyards essentially tucked into a 1 mile stretch of road in the same AVA.

By that standard there are likely many winemakers with more experience than JP.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Very much enjoying this thread. Continuing my run of older St Innocent’s we had this one over the weekend. I had higher expectations given the praise of the '93 vintage, but this was more “interesting” than anything and while considerably better than the recent '94 Freedom Hill, was well below the '95 StInnocent Brickhouse

• 1993 St. Innocent Pinot Noir Seven Springs Vineyard - USA, Oregon, Willamette Valley (2/27/2021)
  Very much alive though there’s probably some decline here. Moderate bricking with a mild brownish crimson color. Nose is mostly loam and mushroom with some black cherry notes mixed in. Smooth resolved palate, turning a bit sour on the finish—which is a bit short showing it’s age. Still, it’s clearly aged gracefully though probably in a slow decline. Over time showed some strong herbaceous aromas. (90 pts.)

Posted from CellarTracker

It’s funny because it’s so easy for me to put a statement on the vintage, but my thoughts on 93 are from tasting a decade ago and older.

There is always so much variation within the vintages and different wines that work out differently. I don’t know that I tasted any of the St. I 1993s at all, but none of them stick in my memory of great 1993s. It was a tricky vintage where the best wines were superlative.

And also, cork is horribly inconsistent. I picked up 3 bottles each of the 1993 BH Flat Block and Southeast Block hoping to take advantage of the law of averages, in regards to 28 year old corks…

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

Depends how you look at experience. I could argue that making far more wine across multiple AVAs and vineyards for less time adds up to more winemaking experience than making far less wine from a small handful of vineyards essentially tucked into a 1 mile stretch of road in the same AVA.

By that standard there are likely many winemakers with more experience than JP.

I don’t know that making more wine every vintage counts for me.

You guys are the gold standard for mid-sized wineries making >10,000 cases as if you were a <5000 case winery. In my opinion, literally no one does that as well as you.

To be fair to John, he’s experimented and/or produced a huge range of wine styles from the early Essencia and Passito bottlings to dry crisp aromatic whites, to classical Chardonnay and Pinot Noirs. For Chardonnay, the multi-clonal planting at Clos Electrique was way ahead of everyone else. And when most producers were bombing at Chardonnay, John was killing it. When Dominque Lafon arrived, John had been killing it with Chardonnay for so many years that he was spawning the next generation of Chardonnay producers (Arterberry-Maresh, Crowley, Westrey, and my own first work).

But some of JPs Pinot Noirs are reductive to a point beyond my ability to enjoy. That’s why I don’t like to contemplate best, wine is too subjective.

And Steve is the most influential Pinot Noir producer for me, but not really an influence on my white wines at all. Though I do think the Cristom white wines are very good, and better than he sometimes gets credit for.

Ken Wright made excellent wines in the 1990s but honestly, I think Josh Bergstrom would be my preference between these two. Josh makes excellent whites as well as being very good in his Pinot Noirs. Lynn Penner-Ash and Tony Rynders should also should be considered with JP and Steve, both have made highly regarded Pinot Noirs and Chardonnays(a 96 Rex Hill Chardonnay, made by Lynn, was a revelation to me in 2017).

Mark Vlossak deserves to be in the conversation. But so does the Casteel family at Bethel Heights. And while he didn’t get much respect Myron Redford made some very, very good wines over a lot of years. They weren’t flashy but there was a raw honesty to them that was often exceptional.

From a technical aspect, Dave Paige who was at Adelsheim for years can run circles around most of the rest of us.

Brian O’Donnell also has to be in the same tier as JP and Steve for me. Great variety of wines, and great consistency across both reds and whites. Russ Raney made phenomenal Pinot Noirs and solid whites as well.

And there are a lot of very talented producers working now, that may not have the history of wines that JP and Steve do, but definitely have the talent and drive to possibly outperform both of them. Look at Ken Pahlow, who started working for Mark Vlossak in 1996. There’s so much more information now, as well as experience working with fruit. There’s also a massive amount of acceptance for diverse styles in wines. The freedom afforded to winemakers working right now is remarkable and should allow people like Chad Stock, Kelley Fox, Saul Mutchnick, Kate and Tom at Division, and the folks at Johan(WV Blaufrankisch is great) to equal or surpass many of the current iconic winemakers if they continue to push boundaries(and learn what boundaries shouldn’t be pushed).

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

I avoid the word best as much as possible. And both JP and Steve have been hugely influential for me. But the list of winemakers in this conversation would have to be bigger than just those two.

In terms of “upper tier” (it’s probably as subjective as “best”), there’s a long list. Are there any active winemakers in the WV with more cumulative and OR winemaking experience than Steve and JP? Possibly Vlossak and Ken Wright?

RT

"

And JP goes back to 85, so I can’t think of anyone else going back that far. Steve is 92, and Vlossak goes back to the 80’s. Matt Kinney of McKinlay pre-dates Steve in Oregon, with his Calera years added in Steve may be the highest number of vintages.

And it may surprise a few people to see some of the names in my “upper tier”, but I feel it’s important to separate the list from a group of my favorite winemakers.

[Todd_Hamina]

My top ten:

Anna Matzinger
Kelley Fox
Veronique Drouhin
Bryce Bagnall
Dave Paige
David Lett
Doug Tunnell
Gary Andrus
Jim Anderson
Marcus Goodfellow
Steve Doerner

I would have included Don, the original winemaker at Adelsheim, if I knew how to spell his last name. But I did not because if the facility gets buggy under your watch… no list for you. The order is alphabetized by first name, Ladies first.