Orange Wine: What Say You?

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

Cameron Ramato Pinot Gris.

Johan makes a skin contact PG as well that is a good example.

[Brian_Heslop]

Foradori’s whites are very crisp and I think would fit that description nicely Anton.

[Howard_Davis]

For mine, Josko Gravner Ribolla is the best amber wine I’ve ever tried …

I’m just back from Georgia (the country, not the US state) and tried a number of amber wines there, and liked many, others less so … The best variety of amber I tried was Rkatsiteli made in qvevri (clay amphorae). It’s not a fad unless fads can go 8,000 years (as amber wines, and qvevri winemaking, have in Georgia and Armenia). The good ones, like Gravner’s in Italy and the best from Georgia, are not meant to be oxidative. They’re an interesting combination of fresh and mature at the same time.

I agree with Jim’s comment. Typically, treat amber wines like reds, and serve accordingly.

And I like the Gravner reds and Georgian Saperavis made in qvevri …

Both colours are worth trying for something different but they are definitely an acquired taste …

[Anton_D]

Many thanks!

The shopping shall commence!

[simonjwoolf]

Missed this thread at the time, but the topic is an all subsuming passion for me.

I love the variety and complexity of orange wines. As many have implied above, they should be not be primarily oxidative or oxidised. In fact it’s the vitality of stuff like Gravner, Sepp Muster, Vodopivec, Dario Princic or Franz Strohmeier that grabs me.

Hope to find some other “orange” fans on here!

Oh… and here’s a short vid where I explain in a bit more detail why I like them so much:

[Steve_Slatcher]

@TomHill

2. The wines I mostly prefer are made by no skin-contact (which preserves the varietal character) and then a portion made w/ prolonged skin contact (which gives the phenolic character) and then blended together in some proportion.
3. I prefer to make a distinction between “orange” wines and skin-contact whites, made in a reductive manner. The “orange” wines, as made in Georgia, and by the Radikon/Gravner paradigm, are made in an oxidative manner, w/ lengthy contact w/ oxygen. The skin-contact whites, as made by Jim/Skerk/etc are put to barrel at the completion of fermentation and then totally raised in a reductive manner. They have much the same phenolic character as “orange” wines, but lack the oxidative character of “orange” wines. That distinction is one that I prefer to make, but is not universally accepted. Some people prefer to label any skin-contact white as an “orange” wine, oxidative or reductive. But I think the two are quite different and prefer to distinguish between the two. But what the heck would I know??

Yeah, I’m not sure I agree with all this, but would be interested in what others have to say.

I have had limited experience of orange wines in general, but have tried quite a few Georgian orange qvevri wines recently. In general I would not say they are oxidised, and my favourites are very fresh and aromatic. The qvevri necks are narrow, and in most cases sealed after fermentation has completed. Yes, the clay is slightly porous, but then so are barrels. Some are actually now matured in barrique anyway, or simply bottled right after fermentation - it depends.

But Georgia definitely did acquire a bit of a reputation at one time for oxidised wine, and this seemed to be tolerated there as part of the style. But I think this was just down to sloppy winemaking, and is not nearly so common now.

[Todd_Hamina]

I say yes. We make a bone dry pinkish orangey Gewürztraminer.

[bob_poirier]

Ryme His Vermentino Excellent!

[Michel_Abood]

@Jim Cowan

I’m with Todd; enjoy many if they are not oxidized. And even then, one or two are of interest.

I make several including Sauvignon and Ribolla - some things I’ve found:

• they should be served as you would a red wine; very lightly chilled. As soon as they get colder they aren’t the same wines.
• they go with almost anything - and most people don’t think that. I avoid red meat but not much else.
• they age. All those phenolics, why not?
• they are hard to sell; they are certainly an acquired taste.
  Best, Jim

Disclaimer= we import an orange wine from Emilia Romagna (100% Albana in amphora from Al di la del Fiume)

I agree with almost everything Jim said, but that last point comes with a few caveats. Yes, they’re an acquired taste, assuming the wine is well-made and delicious (not always the case, there’s a lot of orange wine brought in for sake of being orange as opposed to being good). At the right price and quality, they sell shockingly well. We initally brought in a little of the amphora Fricando and it vaporized before I could blink. It’s been one of our best-selling wines for over a year now, but then again it’s not super-oxidized. Maybe that’s the secret?

That said, I do enjoy them if they’re well-made as they are delicious on their own and go well with a huge variety of foods. I don’t think every grape should be made this way, but in the right hands they can be great.

[Michel_Abood]

Oh, and flawed poll: Eric Levine touched me and I liked it but I couldn’t choose several options so I voted #2.

[Blake_Brown]

@Mike Grammer

Great story on this subject. My friend Heather was in a Costco and they were closing out some wine for $40 per half bottle. When she asked, they told her that they couldn’t sell it because it was orange wine. 2001 D’Yquem. She bought whatever was there, a couple cases I think. We hate her, but we love the story!

Love it!

[Blake_Brown]

@TomHill

@Jim Cowan

I’m with Todd; enjoy many if they are not oxidized. And even then, one or two are of interest.

I make several including Sauvignon and Ribolla - some things I’ve found:

• they should be served as you would a red wine; very lightly chilled. As soon as they get colder they aren’t the same wines.
• they go with almost anything - and most people don’t think that. I avoid red meat but not much else.
• they age. All those phenolics, why not?
• they are hard to sell; they are certainly an acquired taste.
  Best, Jim

Yup…this guy knows of what he speaks. Serve slightly chilled. They are not much fun to taste, in many cases. But they need food…mostly of a savory kind.

1. If the skin contact during fermentation is minimal (hrs or a few days), they can still show some varietal content. But prolonged skin contact can (usually) obliterate varietal character (as I recognize it) and gives it a very strong (what I call) phenolic character, that contributes to a certain sameness to the wines.
2. The wines I mostly prefer are made by no skin-contact (which preserves the varietal character) and then a portion made w/ prolonged skin contact (which gives the phenolic character) and then blended together in some proportion.
3. I prefer to make a distinction between “orange” wines and skin-contact whites, made in a reductive manner. The “orange” wines, as made in Georgia, and by the Radikon/Gravner paradigm, are made in an oxidative manner, w/ lengthy contact w/ oxygen. The skin-contact whites, as made by Jim/Skerk/etc are put to barrel at the completion of fermentation and then totally raised in a reductive manner. They have much the same phenolic character as “orange” wines, but lack the oxidative character of “orange” wines. That distinction is one that I prefer to make, but is not universally accepted. Some people prefer to label any skin-contact white as an “orange” wine, oxidative or reductive. But I think the two are quite different and prefer to distinguish between the two. But what the heck would I know??
4. The color, orange or not, is very much a function of the grape variety you’re using. If you’re using (ripe) PinotGris/GWT/Aleatico/Brachetto/etc that have some color content at full ripeness; you’ll get a distinct pink/rose/orange color. If you’re using SauvBlanc/Chard/Tokaji/Ribolla that has little anthocyanin content in the skin, you’ll get a wine w/ little color. Or sometimes not, there’ll be an orange/salmon/copper tinge to the wine.
5. I find that skin-contact whites are an absolutely fascinating genre. They’re no fun to taste on their own. Some can be pretty funky…especially if made by “natural” winemaking techniques and no SO2. And some can just be weird. And some can just be absolutely delicious…especially w/ savory food to moderate the tannins on the palate. Like Jim…I starting to find some of them age into really interesting stuff.
   Tom
   Nice seeing and drinking w/ you & Diane last week. A really fun event it was.
   Tom

Long. Not boring.

[Jay_Miller]

I had the great fortune to both meet Tom Hill earlier this week and to taste the wonderful Ryme Ribolla Giolla that he brought. Delicious.

[TomHill]

@Jay Miller

I had the great fortune to both meet Tom Hill earlier this week and to taste the wonderful Ryme Ribolla Giolla that he brought. Delicious.

Well, Jay…your week could have only gotten better after Mon night. It was an extraordinary evening.
Great to meet you in RealSpace.

The Ryme (TN to follow) was much better than I expected. Lots of phenolic character but I was expecting it to
be tannic/lean/austere on the palate. It was not. Very lush/rich/honeyed on the palate. Wondeful wine.
MehanGlaab was delighted it showed so well. They don’t have many btls left in their stash.
Now can hardly wait to try the similar Aglianico Rose '10.
Tom

[Matthew_Brown]

@Todd Hamina

I say yes. We make a bone dry pinkish orangey Gewürztraminer.

Yeah you do!

[Todd_Hamina]

Thanks Mr. Brown!

[JohnP]

Great topic. I’ve become a fan of Paolo Bea in Umbria which makes an incredible Sagrantino. Finding a 20 year bottle online for around 100-150 is actually not too difficult. There is small producer in Healdsbhrg called DaVero that makes the best new world Sangrantino I’ve ever tried. I highly recommend trying their 2012, which just released, it was incredible when I tried it earlier this month.

[TomHill]

@JohnP

There is small producer in Healdsbhrg called DaVero that makes the best new world Sangrantino I’ve ever tried. I highly recommend trying their 2012, which just released, it was incredible when I tried it earlier this month.

I’ve had the first release (I believe) of the DaVero Sagrantino. I thought it was decent, plenty of new oak, more like a Cab, spoke quietly of Sagratino. And way overpriced at $80.
Has anyone ever had the Sagrantino that SweetAlice made with KevinHamel??
Tom

[JohnP]

@TomHill

@JohnP

There is small producer in Healdsbhrg called DaVero that makes the best new world Sangrantino I’ve ever tried. I highly recommend trying their 2012, which just released, it was incredible when I tried it earlier this month.

I’ve had the first release (I believe) of the DaVero Sagrantino. I thought it was decent, plenty of new oak, more like a Cab, spoke quietly of Sagratino. And way overpriced at $80.
Has anyone ever had the Sagrantino that SweetAlice made with KevinHamel??
Tom

I’ve tried their first vintages 2008,09,10. All were not on the radar to what they produced in 2012. I believe the vines are finally old enough to deliver superior fruit. I highly recommend giving them a visit next time you’re in that area. Please let me know your thoughts.

[TomHill]

@JohnP

@TomHill

@JohnP

There is small producer in Healdsbhrg called DaVero that makes the best new world Sangrantino I’ve ever tried. I highly recommend trying their 2012, which just released, it was incredible when I tried it earlier this month.

I’ve had the first release (I believe) of the DaVero Sagrantino. I thought it was decent, plenty of new oak, more like a Cab, spoke quietly of Sagratino. And way overpriced at $80.
Has anyone ever had the Sagrantino that SweetAlice made with KevinHamel??
Tom

I’ve tried their first vintages 2008,09,10. All were not on the radar to what they produced in 2012. I believe the vines are finally old enough to deliver superior fruit. I highly recommend to give them a visit next time you’re in that area. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks, John…I’ll stop by there next time I’m out there. I think they are doing some
interesting stuff.
Tom