We are mostly tied in the beer brewing sector but looking to branch into a small winery and vineyard. We should have to skills to be good at it but mostly doing some market research now to determine what our goals should look like. Being in KS, we need to be careful which grapes we select to grow and what products people desire to buy. We do NOT want to be in the budget wine business but also looking to provide a quality and exciting product with a reasonable price. Right now it looks like the market hovers around the 14-30$ market depending on the barrel aging and juices used?
It looks like the most prized wines are not “fun” wines with exotic additives, but are pure from the vine to the bottle.
I am curious to learn what makes a wine more expensive (to a point) realistically, sidestepping the BS factors associated inflated price due to a name tag or specific review?
As well, I am curious what one expects to pay for such a quality product?
And thirdly, I am curious if one is the venture outside the standards of wine making to create adventurous products, is this something that regular wine drinkers seek or is this mostly a novelty item?
Suggest sticking to white or non-grape (fruit) wine. Have not yet had a red wine from any state east of the Pacific that brings quality worth the price charged… if you want to survive on local tourist/novelty dollars, that’s your choice, and many such wineries do so, but I image you’ll have to plan for such a business model.
I am curious what makes the West coast the only ones able to make wine? Is there some climate anomaly there? Is there possibly a scale consideration that just allowed a larger winery to reduce price on wines? What constitutes “quality”?
I believe I am asking a fair question here if this is something that local wineries are doing different or if this is more of a pricing issue rather than actual quality difference.
You will need to determine if you want to be a tourist destination and sell you wines thru that market or try to compete in the fine wine market. It will be a tough sell doing the later as KS doesn’t have much market panache. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done though.
You can make all the wine you want anywhere you can grow vitis vinifera, but you need a Mediterranean climate (dry, but not scorching, summers, mild winters) to make interesting wine, unfortunately. This is the collective judgment of 2000 years of winemaking and winedrinking. Making it doubly difficult is the fact that it’s just more expensive to make anything here as opposed to in countries like Spain and Argentina.
I very much agree. I my research, it looks like as a whole, only 12% of all wine drinkers really even drink “fine wine” or pay more than $30 bucks/bottle. I am not looking to enter the economy wine markets and wish to spend a little more time and refine the product.
My only real short term market goal is to make a popular “local” variety that folks will desire in restaurants. I would be in dream land believing I can easily enter the fine wine area in the short term. However, I am not sure I desire to get too much into novelty wines with a bunch of foo foo. Those seems to be the ones on sale for 5 bucks that people buy for a party.
I realize that the grapes are the primary for making great wine and I am going to work hard to visit folks in the know to determine what varieties can suit themselves to my conditions. I am a farmer and engineer first so I don’t do too much blind growing. I am trying to gather information right now.
I am still interested to learn why KS cannot compete as a quality wine product?
Bob, as part of your market research to date, have you obtained a broad cross-section of existing vitis vinifera-based wines that are already produced in KS? Have you talked with current growers of vitis vinifera vines in KS to see what grows well, what sells well?
Nick, thanks for that. That is precisely what I am researching right now. I know I simply cannot grow some varieties here due to our cold winters. We can see -5F but usually rarely get in the single digits ever. We see summers up to about 105F normally but the way KS is, the mornings are very nice in the high 70s and don’t peak until 4-5pm. They would get very ideal conditions from the morning sun.
I am also exploring the ideal micro climate for our area. I would be willing to bet what works in CA just is not suited in KS but since some growers don’t do the math, they have some problems. I know of one small vineyard that would be doing good to get 1T/acre.
Tim, I have an appt Sunday with a winery to discuss plantings. They have some varieties that are not supposed to work here. I love Hybridization but sometimes the end result is not all that great.
I am seeing a LOT a vineyards that are not irrigated in KS. I realize there are probably a lot in ideal climates that don;t need it but being able to tune soil moisture is almost a no brainer for me in this venture. Whether it gets used daily will be decided in the growing season but always better to have and not need.
However, it’s certainly not impossible to grow grapes and make them into wine in Kansas. In fact, I believe wine is produced in every of the 50 states. When you start getting into higher-priced wines however, this stops becoming akin to what you’d think of as a processed food product, and in that respect is nothing like beer or spirits.
People who buy wine in the price range you’re looking at are starting to become more interested in comparing the effects of particular soils, climate, and vintage on a wine, which is why the price starts to skew away from the costs of simply bottling fermented grape juice. Europe as as serious head-start on the rest of the world in this respect, because they have the advantage of centuries of farming wine grapes. These wines are the standards against which wines from elsewhere are judged. It took decades for new-world wine regions to be taken seriously. Nobody has yet established this reputation for Kansas, so you face and uphill battle in determining what grape varieties work well there, and convincing others that there’s a reason to buy your wine over ones from established regions.
From the nature of your questions, I get the impression that you’re not approaching this as a wine lover, and are struggling to get a handle on what constitutes a “fine wine.” If that’s the case, then I think you’ll find your entry into the fine wine market to be a difficult one. Do you drink much wine in this price category yourself? Have you spend any time doing comparative tastings to gauge your own idea of what quality wine is?
You might watch the documentary Blood into Wine which chronicles Maynard James Keenan establishing his vineyard and winery in Verde Valley, Arizona.
My honest opinion is that you’ll do best by trying to carve out a niche for yourself that doesn’t compete in the fine wine market, for example like making fruit wine from a fruit that’s already established in your region.
(edited to add: Sorry if some of my post is redundant - it appears you clarified many points while I was typing my reply )
Bob, I’m not sure what your time horizon for this project is, but growing, cellaring and ultimately selling (through) wines can take quite a long time and require a LOT of money. Have you considered purchasing winegrapes from CA (for instance) and having them trucked to a facility you may already own/work out of? I know folks that live in NY/NJ but have been buying CA fruit (and making wine) for decades, as an example.
I think I only ask the points on fine wines because in my research, it has been proven time and again that some wines are over hyped and under deliver. Once everything is in a solo cup with no name, some of the best taste buds around can’t tell the difference between a 2 month oak chip Pinot and a 5yr barrel aged.
I guess what I am doing right now is trying to separate the BS from the real chemistry and that is no disrespect to anyone here that enjoys wines!
If there is one thing I have learned in craft beer, it is that “my” favorite is rarely the next guys favorite. I know I love red wines but I also know the tannins in reds can do bad things.
As I say, I am really not trying to enter the market with guns blazing to tell all “I have the best”, but I would find it really hard to enter as “just another” without finding an area I can improve in the central USA. I am, however, not naive enough to think I can just up and change the biology of grapes over night. I know for certain some varieties work well in KS.
I am not really on any sort of time crunch here and realize it will be years before we are wining. We already own the farm and brewery. However, I feel it will become a reality to tune our processes and product my ordering in grapes. However, due to KS law, we have to use 30% native grapes in our product. I am not real sure if we will even do that as a commercial venture though. I am more or less looking for latitude in the “expansion” of a commercial winery in the next 3 yrs. It will obviously take months for me to study and source selected vine varieties, create an ideal planting zone and spacing, and design machinery to operate. Once the vines are planted, we will probably focus on sourced wine grapes to tune the process.
We also produce hops for the beer market so some of this overlaps.
Bob, I live in the MO/KS area, and never buy any local wines. For me the quality doesn’t justify the price. You say you don’t want to be in the value wine business, but you mahy want to keep in mind the size of that business. As a wine lover, why should I buy a $20 local wine that is really not as good as a $10 European wine? If you don’t want to be in the value game you are going to have to nail quality. Of course a lot of MO wineries seem to do okay.
My first advice is, if possible, look into vitis vinifera varietals. Look for something hearty, and maybe pick sites that stay somewhat warmer in winter without roasting in summer. The “Why only the West Coast?” question has been answered already, and the main problems you are going to encounter are going to be winters, and particularly cold snaps after thaws I’ve been told are problematic in the midwest. I’ve had some decent quality in Cab franc in MO. Some people like Norton as well, and that does well around here.
But the comment about whites is a good one. If you can make a light, dry wine with good acid and some interesting nuance I’d bet you coulld sell a lot. Most of your competitors aim at sweet wines. Summers get hot around here, as you know, so there has to be a good market for dry whites and roses.
Lastly, make a sparkling wine. Frankly, bubbles help cover some flaws and people like sparklers. I don’t see much in sparkling from this area, and if priced right I’d consider buying a local bubbly, provided it was dry, priced fairly and of decent quality.
I think that is a very fair assessment Michael. I agree that Europe has a head start but I still feel we are somewhat in our infancy in the USA regarding beer and wine. The day I can’t find “Bud Light” on the shelf is the day I think we figured it out…
I also will drink a Scotch over American Whiskey every day. However, I am also a younger generation looking to get back to “American Pride”. We have a little too much outside influence… See many Chevys in France? Can you get Jack Daniels there?
I certainly agree with the former point, but not with the latter. You will find plenty of that periodic article that claims there’s no such thing as quality when it comes to wine. These invariably have the distinction of not being written by those with “the best taste buds around.”
If you believe that in wine, there is no correlation between price and quality, then how do you intend to compete with the likes of e.g. Charles Shaw?
That’s not really my point at all though. It isn’t about head starts or rising quality or any of that, from a buyer’s standpoint I’ll pay something for a local product, but if I’m to drink it all the time I want a certain correlation of quality and price point. I think a lot of midwestern wineries price their product as a novelty, mostly to be bought and consumed at the winery. To really move it as a product, you have to consider your price point and what you are offering that other products don’t have.
And I for one won’t take a Scotch over an American whiskey “any day.” Some days, but more like some Scotch. Sometimes Bourbon or Rye is the right choice. Beer is a good example of where I usually choose domestic, but I do so because the quality, choice and value are there.
Yeah, I just saw this comment too. If you are relying on people not being able to really appreciate the quality of the product, you may want to rethink your model. Those “studies” tend to be a lot of crap. It seems to me that the buyer you want will be able to tell the difference between your product and another and will do so repeatedly.
I live in Missouri and have tried a few Missouri wines. The reds have all been terrible, oaky, lowest-common-denominator grape juice. The whites have mainly been sweet, flat, and lifeless (though I agree there is more potential with those). I don’t believe any of the sparkling I’ve had has been done in the traditional method. I have been to a few wineries. They have all presented gift shop, bus-driving, herd-the-cattle experiences. From what I have read and heard there is no reason the other wineries I haven’t visited aren’t like this as well.
If you’re going to do it, do it right and make a good product. The midwest doesn’t need another schlock, billboard, gimmick winery to reinforce the stereotype that the only good wine in America is made on the West Coast or in Upstate New York. My guess is that it would be very difficult if not impossible to create a “craft” product, either because the terroir and weather in Kansas-Missouri are so poor that it requires lowest-common-denominator additives to fix, or because what people are looking for in the the midwest wine experience off the side of the highway.
Perhaps you could be the next Gruet or Linden Vineyards and gain wider distribution or respect from critics. Good luck to you if that’s your goal and you have the gumption to pull it off, but there isn’t the need for more of what’s already there.
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