David, it’s not necessarily a question of need, but often where the spontaneously fermented wine ends up. It’s difficult to compare, for example, Rheingau dry Rieslings with Mosels. A light Saar Riesling with a pH value of 3 or under, 8.5 per mil acidity, and 10 grams of sugar per liter can taste very dry on entry. I just spent the morning at Falkenstein tasting a couple of cask samples and bottles from 2012. They have wines above 5 grams of sugar that are dry. It’s not a concept, but a fact.
They taste dry to you. So many times I have heard about wines, even with high acids, tasting dry with 5 to 9 g/l of RS, and I always get the sweetness on entry. That has been especially true over the last several years as I have become hypersensitive to sweetness I still like it, but really pick it up at low levels.
Anyway, my overall point is not to use a word-trocken-unless the wine truly is dry. Right now it is used too subjectively in my opinion. Whether we are speaking of a Mosel or a Rheingau wine is irrelevant as the same word is used everywhere. Only the deeply initiated care about the subtle nuances that make up most of this discussion.
Respectfully, I think that many of you are missing the point. The members of the VDP are not unhappy about being members. The VDP is for each and every one of them a very useful MARKETING organization. The sole purpose of the VDP is to help the producer-members to sell wine. The producers have a voice in the matter of rule-changes and are free to leave at any time if they disagree with those changes. That they don’t leave speaks very firmly about the advantages of being part of the group. Furthermore, most producers don’t want a larger selection of wines to sell. It is both a production and marketing nightmare. Many of the village wines and practically all of the estate wines are blends from different parcels within a village or a vorlese harvest from all of their holdings. Unless a vineyard is well-known enough to command a greater price than your village wine, why bother with the small tank-capacity (it takes a hell of a lot more work to make twenty different 500 liter batches than it does one 10 thousand liter batch, not to mention sell them all), limited commercial appeal, and distribution problems (more sample bottles, having to re-sell on your list placement, etc.) that it entails. In the RARE cases where a producer does have a bone to pick, they come up with a fantasy, or soil-type, or parcel name for that wine. I don’t see the problem in that.
The VDP is not in place to promote all of Germany’s vineyards. It is up the individual independent non-VDP producer to take on the challenge of marketing their own vineyards on their own. Do you expect the NFL to promote the CFL teams?
If the wines from an unclassified vineyard from a VDP-member can consistently prove its worth (as far as demonstrating unique properties and not being destroyed by frost every few years), I don’t see any reason why it couldn’t be promoted to Erste Lage.
And why hold the Germans to a higher standard than the rest of the world regarding legally dry wines with some residual sugar? Do you think that all California Chardonnay, Alsace Pinot Gris, Hermitage Blanc, Chablis, Italian Pinot Grigio, Vouvray Sec, Brut Champagne, Austrian Grüner Veltliner and New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc –not to mention many red wines are under 4 g/l residual sugar? Hardly. Yet we don’t question the dryness of these wines. That discussion is almost unique to Riesling.
Lastly, I would never proclaim that all of the greatest German wineries are even VDP members but I think that with very few exceptions, the consumer of German wine is at least assured of a pretty damn good bottle of wine bought from those producers who claim membership. The structure isn’t perfect (exhibit A being this thread involving some of the very biggest Riesling proponents), but it is far better than what was in place before. There are many non-VDP producers in Germany following this model not because they want to gain membership, but because they think that the system will help them also sell wine.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill,
Two things:
Not all top Chardonnays or Pinot Gris sport the word trocken on the label.
Having yet another classification system for German wines makes things more confusing, regardless of what great marketing it is .
Of course, there are many outstanding wine producers among the 30.000 or so German wine makers. But I think your best bet to catch
the top 1000: go to Gault Millau
the top 200: go to VDP membership list
the top 100: go to Handelsblatt online and Vinum list
the top 10: go to Gault Millau with 5 stars.
My red wine favorite in Germany - niche wine producer Moebitz - is not on any of the lists. Still I think these are good and reliable listings.
Hmph
Yes, but dryness is implied in those other wines. The only reason that German Riesling stands out from the rest is that it has become, in every market to some extent (Germany and abroad), heavily associated with sweetness for a good part of the modern era. Now we are faced with a big challenge: not to overcome that reputation, but to somehow work in tandem with it and to try to get people to understand that Riesling can also compete with any of the great dry white wines of the world, as it did historically. And really, this goes for every Riesling-producing area of the world –one of the probable reasons that Riesling is so cheap (outside of Germany, Austria, and Alsace) is that there is so much consumer confusion about what it is and potential wineries don’t want to deal with the headache of selling it. This VDP-model hopes to contribute to the clarity of the matter. Whether or not it is successful, time will tell.
Parallel classification systems are always confusing. But really, Riesling Spätlese Trocken is confusing (not to mention Auslese Trocken). Even Germans associate Spätlese with sweet.
And which vineyard or quality classification isn’t confusing? They all have either too much or too little information.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill-you are never going to convince me. I’ve been through so many German wine labeling fads (Charta, Classic,Selection,etc) that the various authorities have lost all credibility with me. I give this one five years until they come up with something else.
if Beuker did not exist, then some clownish and otherwise insignificant and defnitely minor deity would have to invent him.
nb Germans do not shoot themselves in the foot. they shoot themselves in the knee.
Oh James…such a rapier wit. Thankfully I know what wines you rep, so I can avoid them.
actually, sweetiepie, it’s a bludgeon-like wit—
there’s a reason why the doctor’s bag contains both a hacksaw and a scalpel…
and no village would be complete without its very own idiot.
So there is a village that will have you?
Guys, so much acrimony over a few g/L of sugar?
James, I spent some time at Gut Hermannsberg recently, what a nice pickup for your portfolio. Lots of good stuff being done there. David, you sure you want to miss out on that?
Well if someone gray markets the stuff I will try it. Why should I support someone who treats me the way James does for his amusement?
I don’t know the history between you guys, just trying to inject a little levity.
I’ve met winemakers, owners, importers etc that I didn’t like but I try not to let that affect my interest in the wines. But I don’t blame you if your approach is different, David. I get it. I’ll be posting an interview with Gut Hermannsberg’s winemaker, Karsten Peter, in the coming weeks. Perhaps it will help you attach a different personal association to the wines.
Frankly Alan, I don’t understand it myself.
I agree that they’re not there to promote every vineyard in the country, but I don’t think that negates the fact that telling people which vineyard designates they are and are not allowed to use is unnecessarily limiting. There is no way they will somehow classify every vineyard that can consistently show distinctive characteristics. It reallly seems like another step back, when people still talk about what a grave mistake the eliminations and combinations of designates in 1971 were (a bit different, I know, but I think there are parallels).
As far as the trocken debate, I have to agree with David here. My reason is simple and personal. As someone who sells wine to consumers for a living, it’s very difficult for me to know whether or not they will perceive a trocken wine as dry. Many do not taste dry to anyone. Even if I have had the wine, our thresholds might be different. Also, assuming I have had every wine, what if I want to carry a whole bunch of trockens? I still would be unlikely to remember for every single example whether or not I think it tastes dry. Why use the word “dry” if that isn’t what it means? I love Rieslings that have noticeable sweetness and I love those that do not. Many consumers want one or the other, though, and they and I both want them to know which they’re getting. If it’s difficult for me to navigate, I can only imagine how difficult it is for those who do not focus as much of their time and thought on wine.
So there will now be more than 1 labeling/classification system, and the non-expert consumer (me) will have to understand both of them AND keep track of which producer uses which system to know what to expect? Brilliant…
Not that the old system was much better, with some kabinetts sweeter than some auslesen.
Absent a retailer like Doug who takes the time to know this stuff, I give up.
David Glasser,
actualy, it is more complicated. There are now 4 classification approaches in Germany.
Although many people think that there is only one wine classification system in Germany – the classification system of the Law of 1971 – this is not correct. True, the classification system of the Law of 1971 is the standard classification system in Germany and the vast majority of winemakers in Germany use this approach. A large number of winemakers, however, have moved away from the standard, in particular the producers of premium and ultra-premium wines. Importantly, the powerful group of German elite winemakers – the VDP – has conceived its own classification system and is developing it further currently. Other winemakers moved to a zero classification system – no classification, an approach very familiar in the New World. Finally, there is a group of winemakers who have introduced their own classification system.
For more details, see here: schiller-wine: Approaches to Classifying German Wine: The Standard Approach (the Law of 1971), the VDP Approach and the Zero Classification Approach
So Christian - why would anyone welcome yet another classification system then? What possible reason, other than elitism could there be to have it? It’s absurd.