Most deceptive wine business practices to watch out for

John_Glas · February 5, 2022, 1:47pm

You stole my line with janitor so I will go with barrel cleaner.

John_Glas · February 5, 2022, 7:34pm

Not so much deceptive but I love one of our local wine shops in the fact that when some fellow wine geeks brought up used shippers the guy thought he was doing them a favor taking them off their hands. Really these are over $10 new to buy a case shipper and they are driving across town to your shop.

Arv_R · February 5, 2022, 10:38pm

On the supplier side of things, I would say the practice of chaptalizing domestically. Winemakers who do it have only been willing to discuss it off- the-record. I find this kind of omission frustrating, especially when its done by people who would descibe themselves and purists, non-interventionists and die-hard Burgundians at heart. Why not just admit you’re adding back sugar, like they sometimes do in France. I also find it puzzling that this is done by a few folks domestically (that I know of) when they pick at really low brix? Guess this is more of a winemaking question, but are they picking super low so that the end result is a low-alc wine but adding sugar for texture and weight? It’s confusing.

On the face of it this seems bizarre.

Perhaps in more marginal climates and the sugar is added because a lower alc% would make it a difficult sell in the domestic market? That feels dumb though, like a short guy trying to play basketball by wearing platform heels.

If it’s in a warm/hot climate region it’s even more difficult to fathom, but arguably more interesting as to why and what the end result would be.

Is it possible they are adding the sugar not to chaptalize (i.e. convert into alcohol) but to simply boost the overall sugar level? like adding sweetness back to a champagne?

Some of these modern red blends are geared up for consumers who have drunk more Coke than water in their life after all…

RH_Drexel · February 6, 2022, 12:14am

On the supplier side of things, I would say the practice of chaptalizing domestically. Winemakers who do it have only been willing to discuss it off- the-record. I find this kind of omission frustrating, especially when its done by people who would descibe themselves and purists, non-interventionists and die-hard Burgundians at heart. Why not just admit you’re adding back sugar, like they sometimes do in France. I also find it puzzling that this is done by a few folks domestically (that I know of) when they pick at really low brix? Guess this is more of a winemaking question, but are they picking super low so that the end result is a low-alc wine but adding sugar for texture and weight? It’s confusing.

On the face of it this seems bizarre.

Perhaps in more marginal climates and the sugar is added because a lower alc% would make it a difficult sell in the domestic market? That feels dumb though, like a short guy trying to play basketball by wearing platform heels.

If it’s in a warm/hot climate region it’s even more difficult to fathom, but arguably more interesting as to why and what the end result would be.

Is it possible they are adding the sugar not to chaptalize (i.e. convert into alcohol) but to simply boost the overall sugar level? like adding sweetness back to a champagne?

Some of these modern red blends are geared up for consumers who have drunk more Coke than water in their life after all…

I suppose so, though the few winemakers I’m referencing who practice chapalatizing in California are making high end Pinots, not entry level off-dry blends.

S_Rose · February 6, 2022, 12:29am

Online sites that don’t list the vintage year
Places that substitute vintages without notifying you prior to shipping (and you didn’t ok a sub) and
2a) you get a verbal shrug when calling them on it. Both just happened to me, yeah I’m still salty about it

Wes_Barton · February 6, 2022, 12:46am

On the supplier side of things, I would say the practice of chaptalizing domestically. Winemakers who do it have only been willing to discuss it off- the-record. I find this kind of omission frustrating, especially when its done by people who would descibe themselves and purists, non-interventionists and die-hard Burgundians at heart. Why not just admit you’re adding back sugar, like they sometimes do in France. I also find it puzzling that this is done by a few folks domestically (that I know of) when they pick at really low brix? Guess this is more of a winemaking question, but are they picking super low so that the end result is a low-alc wine but adding sugar for texture and weight? It’s confusing.

On the face of it this seems bizarre.

Perhaps in more marginal climates and the sugar is added because a lower alc% would make it a difficult sell in the domestic market? That feels dumb though, like a short guy trying to play basketball by wearing platform heels.

If it’s in a warm/hot climate region it’s even more difficult to fathom, but arguably more interesting as to why and what the end result would be.

I’ve worked with fruit from all over the state. We made a couple wines that were ripe at 19 brix. Those were Granache Blanc and a Ramato style Pinot Gris (made as a red), that did not suffer being light in body. I’ve also had CA Cabernet Sauvignon that was in the 11.5% ABV range, that seemed thin/watery, especially tasted alongside other wines. In Burgundy, high-end producers regularly fine-tune their Pinots by adding a little body. Is that bizarre? Just because the amateur-hour standard here has been late picking, doesn’t mean everybody does that. So, she’s saying some high-end Burgundy-inspired producers are picking when the grapes are ripe, which for some sites/vintages is concerningly low brix for them. So, they choose to (illegally) fine-tune those wines, adding body the same way the Grand Cru producers they admire do.

Marcus_Goodfellow · February 6, 2022, 4:24am

On the supplier side of things, I would say the practice of chaptalizing domestically. Winemakers who do it have only been willing to discuss it off- the-record. I find this kind of omission frustrating, especially when its done by people who would descibe themselves and purists, non-interventionists and die-hard Burgundians at heart. Why not just admit you’re adding back sugar, like they sometimes do in France. I also find it puzzling that this is done by a few folks domestically (that I know of) when they pick at really low brix? Guess this is more of a winemaking question, but are they picking super low so that the end result is a low-alc wine but adding sugar for texture and weight? It’s confusing.

On the face of it this seems bizarre.

Perhaps in more marginal climates and the sugar is added because a lower alc% would make it a difficult sell in the domestic market? That feels dumb though, like a short guy trying to play basketball by wearing platform heels.

If it’s in a warm/hot climate region it’s even more difficult to fathom, but arguably more interesting as to why and what the end result would be.

Maybe this falls apart when we look at vintage variation? In 2003 and in 2006 in the weather at harvest had sugars elevating at 1-2 Brix per day. It was not really a pleasant situation at all. While I am a small producer, it still took 5 days to pick the 150,000 lbs of fruit I produced that year. Acidify-absolutely. It was that or have wines that tasted like soap(IMO).

That’s 16 years ago, labor for picking, especially in compressed vintages whether from rain or sun, has been the premier focus for me at harvest every year since. But we make 4000 cases, and if we need to Megan and I can go pick with a couple of people and get a smaller block in(and I have). Agriculture just doesn’t always line up to my needs.

In 2011, summer declined to come to the Willamette Valley, and by the last week of October(warmer than July thankfully) and first week of November we had achieved physiological flavor development but at about 19-21 Brix. While I like low alcohol wines, I doubt the entire Willamette Valley could have made wines without chaptalization, and sold 10% of the results. Nor at that stage could I have done any better as an individual winery. So I chaptalized as I felt appropriate for that vintage.

I really dislike the constant(to me) tropes put out that winemakers are either wizards, making a series of superhuman decisions perfectly, or apparently sit in a state of zen as the wines become what they will be without the sullying touch of human hands. None of it is real.

This is a logistical craft, using spoilable agricultural products. In a growing region with a fickle climate, I find that the majority of our wines follow a pretty simple process. But when the I do what ever it takes to make wines that I like and can be proud of.

Mikko_Tuomi · February 6, 2022, 7:31am

“This winemaker spent decades inspecting the production methods at Chateau Petrus. His style mimics the fermentation methods he saw first hand at Petrus”

Ian_Sutton · February 6, 2022, 11:10am

Thanks Marcus
As ever, it’s the specifics that matter over generalisations. Faced with an 11% alc wine or chaptalisation to get to 12.5%, there would be fewer arguments here (legality aside). Faced with a 13.5% alc wine or chaptalisation to 15% and the arguments will be more common and strident.

Where and when matter, but as wine drinkers we also want honesty and the story that triggered this discussion suggests the opposite from that winery representative. We hear a lot of ‘minimal intervention’ etc. so if a winery is talking that and regularly chaptalising, then we have dishonesty. If they have to blend in 20% of a prior vintage to balance the wine, then fine, but let us know. Few drinkers care about getting the perfect result of “it’s what nature delivered”, but we do rail against being misled.

Ian_Sutton · February 6, 2022, 11:25am

Hi Wes
As mentioned above - where and when matters, as does honesty. There are indeed examples where limited chaptalisation isn’t the monster it might appear (I recall DRC is claimed to do it to an albeit limited degree). However exceptions need to be that and for every example of a subtle tweak, how many are chasing the sweet (sorry!) spot of a 14.5% or 15% that sells? More reasonable exceptions aren’t an excuse for more excessive interventions. As a wine enthusiast, I’d like to see this declared, though wine legislation historically is inflexible, meaning plenty has happened the world over, that couldn’t be declared.

The ‘tasted alongside other wines’ is indeed where the concerns are. That a wine might be perfectly good, but if it’s 1-2% alc lower than competitors, it won’t sell as much, or indeed impress the critics tasting 150 wines a day.

Wes_Barton · February 6, 2022, 9:55pm

I’ve worked with fruit from all over the state. We made a couple wines that were ripe at 19 brix. Those were Granache Blanc and a Ramato style Pinot Gris (made as a red), that did not suffer being light in body. I’ve also had CA Cabernet Sauvignon that was in the 11.5% ABV range, that seemed thin/watery, especially tasted alongside other wines. In Burgundy, high-end producers regularly fine-tune their Pinots by adding a little body. Is that bizarre? Just because the amateur-hour standard here has been late picking, doesn’t mean everybody does that.

Hi Wes
As mentioned above - where and when matters, as does honesty. There are indeed examples where limited chaptalisation isn’t the monster it might appear (I recall DRC is claimed to do it to an albeit limited degree). However exceptions need to be that and for every example of a subtle tweak, how many are chasing the sweet (sorry!) spot of a 14.5% or 15% that sells? More reasonable exceptions aren’t an excuse for more excessive interventions. As a wine enthusiast, I’d like to see this declared, though wine legislation historically is inflexible, meaning plenty has happened the world over, that couldn’t be declared.

The ‘tasted alongside other wines’ is indeed where the concerns are. That a wine might be perfectly good, but if it’s 1-2% alc lower than competitors, it won’t sell as much, or indeed impress the critics tasting 150 wines a day.

Sao clarified what she implied. She’s talking about good high-end producers fine-tuning their low ABV Pinots. That’s what I was replying to. And again, if someone just wants to make goof juice, concentrates are legal and more apt to that end. Or, they can just late pick, which so many do. It’s mind-numbing how many Sonoma Coast PNs have their character ripened out of them and end up tasting the same - smooth and dull. I have no idea what they’re thinking or who even likes that generic crap. Why go cool climate, then late pick and try to make warmer climate Pinot which isn’t even as good as warmer climate Pinot? I understand the cache of the great sites out there and the great wines made from them. Maybe these other sites just suck, or the growers won’t do what’s needed to produce quality (and don’t know how, and aren’t interested in exploring how).

Again, high-end Burg producers have routinely chaptalised. Maybe the “need” to is declining with climate change. Where’s the call for them to be honest?

Then again, Ridge decided to be honest on their labels (following Randall Graham’s lead) and caught tons of flak from internet armchair quarterbacks. Turns out doing much much less intervention than most, but being open about it, is perceived by many as being an extreme interventionist. On…this…forum.

J_Galang · February 7, 2022, 5:49am

By far the most common deceptive practice I encounter is merchants listing wines they do not have on wine-searcher.com. So many times I follow the link to the retailer ands the wine isn’t there any more. That is fair. But too often, I see a certain wine available on their website and I go to the trouble of setting up and account and buying the wine. Two weeks later I’m wondering what happened. I contact them and find out the wine was sold out when I ordered. When I start looking for it again, it’s sold out everywhere else. So the sloppy (or dishonest) retailer has caused me to miss out entirely.

If you sell wine on line, there is no excuse for not having reasonable inventory control. The best retailer websites actually say how many bottles they have in stock. If I miss out on a particular wine, it’s usually because a retailer sold me bottles he didn’t have.

^^ This, selling wine you actually do not have or very poor inventory control. One fun way I test this out is that I place 120 bottles of the wine in cart, if it lets me add it, then its 50-50 that they even have that wine at all.

Joseph_Grassa · February 7, 2022, 1:49pm

By far the most common deceptive practice I encounter is merchants listing wines they do not have on wine-searcher.com. So many times I follow the link to the retailer ands the wine isn’t there any more. That is fair. But too often, I see a certain wine available on their website and I go to the trouble of setting up and account and buying the wine. Two weeks later I’m wondering what happened. I contact them and find out the wine was sold out when I ordered. When I start looking for it again, it’s sold out everywhere else. So the sloppy (or dishonest) retailer has caused me to miss out entirely.

If you sell wine on line, there is no excuse for not having reasonable inventory control. The best retailer websites actually say how many bottles they have in stock. If I miss out on a particular wine, it’s usually because a retailer sold me bottles he didn’t have.

^^ This, selling wine you actually do not have or very poor inventory control. One fun way I test this out is that I place 120 bottles of the wine in cart, if it lets me add it, then its 50-50 that they even have that wine at all.

I am very much in agreement on this. With my previous business, this was a pain watching competitors sell stuff they didn’t have. It was wheel replacements for damaged wheels on cars, so customers wouldnt be able to get there cars back on the road. We were all automated and linked to each product so we rarely had this happen but that requires processes (training) and software (and often hardware).

When this is an honest mistake it is most likely to happen when inventory is low, and they just mistakenly sold out in the store or shipped it accidentally to a customer who ordered something else.

One thing to note though is that if you are buying wines that are selling out everywhere else during that time, it wouldn’t be surprising for them to have accidentally sold out as well. You will notice that the least expensive listings on wine searcher are the ones most likely to have this problem, because they are the most likely to sell out, even if they weren’t listing things they never had.

cjsavino · February 8, 2022, 10:03pm

Like this one…can’t afford Petrus, get this for $25

Wes_Barton · February 8, 2022, 10:24pm

How’s that deceptive? Looks like all the facts are laid out. Quoting a recommendation from a wine critic that this qpr he rated 91 points is a third-rate shadow of Petrus?

John_Glas · February 8, 2022, 11:13pm

For $25 give one bottle a try.

Marcus_Goodfellow · February 9, 2022, 12:15am

Thanks Marcus
As ever, it’s the specifics that matter over generalisations. Faced with an 11% alc wine or chaptalisation to get to 12.5%, there would be fewer arguments here (legality aside). Faced with a 13.5% alc wine or chaptalisation to 15% and the arguments will be more common and strident.

Where and when matter, but as wine drinkers we also want honesty and the story that triggered this discussion suggests the opposite from that winery representative. We hear a lot of ‘minimal intervention’ etc. so if a winery is talking that and regularly chaptalising, then we have dishonesty. If they have to blend in 20% of a prior vintage to balance the wine, then fine, but let us know. Few drinkers care about getting the perfect result of “it’s what nature delivered”, but we do rail against being misled.

I totally agree. I love the vineyards and far prefer talking about them over cellar work.