Montrachet pronunciation?

[RichardFlack]

@John Morris

@Jason T

John it’s a good question. I looked for sites that provided an audible pronunciation, such as the one linked below. When I listen to it I hear the T pronounced, in a French accent. Most other sites that had an audible pronunciation were the same way, which surprised me, because I was under the impression that the T was silent.

https://youtu.be/HgW_qyK2lYg

You were right. That site has it wrong.

I suspect they simply don’t know the origins of the compound and proper name. They are pronouncing it as if it were “Mon Trachet,” where the first T would be pronounced, rather than “Mont Rachet,” where it is not. Consonants at the beginnings of words (e.g., “trachet”) are not silent!

Agree the T is silent (but very slightly modifying the N) but is that because the word is a compound mont +rachet or simply that the T is followed by a consonant, rather than a vowel? Montagne, the T is sounded. (Yes I know that’s not a composite word, trying to think of better example).

[James_Wright]

first thing i do every time i visit Burgundy is to go pee in the Montrachet…

this way, a li’l bit of Americana goes beyond the rootstock upon which the sublime fruitwood has been grafted…

[Jayson_Cohen]

@James Wright

first thing i do every time i visit Burgundy is to go pee in the Montrachet…

this way, a li’l bit of Americana goes beyond the rootstock upon which the sublime fruitwood has been grafted…

To quote a very wise man: “are you being stupid on purpose, or is it an accident?”

Honestly though, Yuk.

[Mark_Anisman]

there is no trash in Montrachet, hence the silent t’s

[Craig_G]

@Alan Rath

@Craig G

Throat Warbler Mangrove.

You’re a very silly man.

Anti-semitism!

[John_Morris]

@RichardFlack

@John Morris

@Jason T

John it’s a good question. I looked for sites that provided an audible pronunciation, such as the one linked below. When I listen to it I hear the T pronounced, in a French accent. Most other sites that had an audible pronunciation were the same way, which surprised me, because I was under the impression that the T was silent.

https://youtu.be/HgW_qyK2lYg

You were right. That site has it wrong.

I suspect they simply don’t know the origins of the compound and proper name. They are pronouncing it as if it were “Mon Trachet,” where the first T would be pronounced, rather than “Mont Rachet,” where it is not. Consonants at the beginnings of words (e.g., “trachet”) are not silent!

Agree the T is silent (but very slightly modifying the N) but is that because the word is a compound mont +rachet or simply that the T is followed by a consonant, rather than a vowel? Montagne, the T is sounded. (Yes I know that’s not a composite word, trying to think of better example).

Bad example, I think, because consonants that would otherwise be silent in French are voiced when they allide with a vowel that follows.

I think you’re forced back to semantics: The pronunciation of Montrachet reflects the derivation of the name from “mont.” The T is also silent in Montreal in French. By contrast, the T is sounded in “montrer” and “contraire” even though it’s followed by a consonant. In those cases, the first syllable ends with the N (the end of the -ON vowel phonetically), so the T is the beginning of a new syllable and is sounded.

The alternative explanation is that there are irregular place names even in languages with quite regular spelling and pronunciation.

[RichardFlack]

John good points, I haven’t really analysed it before. If I was ever taught rules they are long forgotten.

[J_a_y_H_a_c_k]

@Otto Forsberg

I cringe with every “-shay” written here. Pronouncing it that way you’re going to pronounce everything with that typical English “-hey” ending that really doesn’t exist in French (oh well, there might be some words that end up with some kind of -ey or -ay but you get the point).

Getting it right without IPA letters is bloody difficult, but I’d say it’s closer to “MON-rah-sheh” - and the “n” in “Mont” gets swallowed a bit, it being somewhere between a “mon” and “mong” (without saying the final g out loud).

Or then just go with “mount ratchet”.

Agreed. Sorry, but we 'Mericans just don’t get that diphthong thing very well. I think the best way to describe it to an English speaker is to say that the last syllable is -shay without the “y” sound at the end, or to put it physically, you don’t close your throat at the end so you avoid getting the “y” sound as the second part of a long vowel.

[Francois_Audouze]

There are specific habits in Burgundy like for example to say Alosse Corton when it is written Aloxe Corton, and to say Fissin when it is written Fixin.

the “x” becomes “ss”, and I must say that for Fixin, you look like being snob when you say Fissin.

But in the case of Montrachet, the “t” not pronounced is not specific to Burgundy.
In Chateauneuf-du-Pape, You say Mon-re-don for Montredon.

For Monbazillac, it is easy, because there is no “t”

[Francois_Audouze]

More complex is the case of Echézeaux and Grands-Echézeaux.

Normally the “é” should be pronounced “hay” but I see many people including important people of Burgundy pronouncing “heu” instead of “hé”

And what surprised me is that Aubert de Villaine prounounced grand -d- échézeaux and not
gran-z-échézeaux which is what should be done.

[John_Morris]

@François Audouze

There are specific habits in Burgundy like for example to say Alosse Corton when it is written Aloxe Corton, and to say Fissin when it is written Fixin.

the “x” becomes “ss”, and I must say that for Fixin, you look like being snob when you say Fissin.

I’m confused by the bolded part. If it’s pronounced Fissin locally, why does it make one sound look like a snob to pronounce it that way?

[Joe_S]

For Montrachet, shouldn’t Americans hold their nose closed while pronouncing the “Mont” part?
(Just sayin’)

[Francois_Audouze]

John,
It is because more than 95% of people say FIXIN. So I hesitate always before saying Fissin as it could be taken as pedant.
But is is probably my fault.

[John_Morris]

@François Audouze

John,
It is because more than 95% of people say FIXIN. So I hesitate always before saying Fissin as it could be taken as pedant.
But is is probably my fault.

OK. I understand.

I’m curious – do you pronounce the S in Vacqueyras and Gigondas? I believe they do sound it in Provence, right? (I’m not sure I’ve ever seen you report on drinking those wines!)

[RichardFlack]

Intrigued by the Provençal pronoun citation. I don’t think it’s 'correct '. I was told at school the most corrrct French is spoken around the Loire or Tours. Can any one confirm?

[John_Morris]

@RichardFlack

Intrigued by the Provençal pronoun citation. I don’t think it’s 'correct '.

It’s correct in Provence.

[Michel_Abood]

@John Morris

@François Audouze

John,
It is because more than 95% of people say FIXIN. So I hesitate always before saying Fissin as it could be taken as pedant.
But is is probably my fault.

OK. I understand.

I’m curious – do you pronounce the S in Vacqueyras and Gigondas? I believe they do sound it in Provence, right? (I’m not sure I’ve ever seen you report on drinking those wines!)

I’ve heard it both ways, depending on where the speaker came from. Same goes for Cornas and Chenas. When I ask, the person always says “Well they’re pronouncing it wrong, I’ve always said it this way so it must be right.”

Basically, you can’t lose.

[Francois_Audouze]

Personnally, I do not pretend to know the truth, but I would pronounce the “s” for Cornas, Vacqueyras, Rayas…
And I would not pronounce the “s” for Carpentras…

[John_Morris]

For what it’s worth, many years ago in Carpentras, I was conversing with a local man on the street who said that the natives pronounced the S but that people from Paris didn’t. He said it was fine either way.

[Chris_Seiber]

One interesting thing as an English speaker is deciding when to try to pronounce a word from another language properly or not.

Do you saw Moscow or Moskva? Rome or Roma? Paris or pa-hree? Los Angeles or lowss-AN-hell-ees?

Like everyone, I just kind of pick and choose based on how I feel. I go with mon-trah-shay. Even though I know that first t is correctly just sort of thought but not said. It’s just too much. Not saying that to question anyone else’s approach in the least, just being honest.