Mission Impossible: unoaked California Cab?

[Howard_Cooper]

Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I meant no discernible oak influence, so I suppose 3rd fill neutral barrels would be OK, but no new oak.

Thanks for the Foxglove and the French one - they seem like the only ones so far that fit the bill. I might try the Foxglove.

As I said, try Stony Hill.

[Howard_Cooper]

Why is oak a bad thing for Cab? I think people here get too infatuated with it when oak is generally beneficial to wine.

Now, charring the bejesus out of a barrel and using all sorts of new oak lipstick is annoying, but I really don’t think I’d want to drink a stainless steel aged Cab

And, sometimes, with age, the influence of the new oak becomes minimal. My favorite Burgundy producer (Jacky Truchot), made most of his wines without any new oak. But, every year he had to buy a few new oak barrels. So, he put his Charmes Chambertin in that. Drink the wines at 3 years old, and the new oak is really easy to see - the wine tastes very different from all his other wines. Drink it at 15, and it tastes like any other Truchot wine and the differences you see reflect terroir and not oak.

[Tom_DeBiase]

Why is oak a bad thing for Cab? I think people here get too infatuated with it when oak is generally beneficial to wine.

Now, charring the bejesus out of a barrel and using all sorts of new oak lipstick is annoying, but I really don’t think I’d want to drink a stainless steel aged Cab

It all depends on one’s sensitivity to oak or oaks influence. There are a gazillion people who love Ridge wines, I can’t even sip them because of the oak. For me it’s not just the obvious American, French, Hungarian oak flavors in wines but also the influence with flavors like “burnt”, “charcoal” “smoky” (from oak), “dill” “coconut” etc. etc. And yes I have tried said wines with tons of age and for me they don’t integrate. Really not a problem, leaves more wine for those who enjoy them. Everyone wins.

Tom

[Brian_Curtis]

The Savage Grace Cab, which I think is terrific, is made with only neutral oak (no new) barrels.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

Why is oak a bad thing for Cab? I think people here get too infatuated with it when oak is generally beneficial to wine.

Now, charring the bejesus out of a barrel and using all sorts of new oak lipstick is annoying, but I really don’t think I’d want to drink a stainless steel aged Cab

It all depends on one’s sensitivity to oak or oaks influence. There are a gazillion people who love Ridge wines, I can’t even sip them because of the oak. For me it’s not just the obvious American, French, Hungarian oak flavors in wines but also the influence with flavors like “burnt”, “charcoal” “smoky” (from oak), “dill” “coconut” etc. etc. And yes I have tried said wines with tons of age and for me they don’t integrate. Really not a problem, leaves more wine for those who enjoy them. Everyone wins.

Tom

Sure, but that has a lot more to do with decisions on the char level and how the producer implements the oak. Doesn’t change the fact that the use of oak isn’t the problem. Oak is and can be extremely beneficial to wine and we focus too much on the extremes because we are buying at a price point in which prominent oak characteristics can and will happen.

[larry_schaffer]

Why is oak a bad thing for Cab? I think people here get too infatuated with it when oak is generally beneficial to wine.

Now, charring the bejesus out of a barrel and using all sorts of new oak lipstick is annoying, but I really don’t think I’d want to drink a stainless steel aged Cab

It all depends on one’s sensitivity to oak or oaks influence. There are a gazillion people who love Ridge wines, I can’t even sip them because of the oak. For me it’s not just the obvious American, French, Hungarian oak flavors in wines but also the influence with flavors like “burnt”, “charcoal” “smoky” (from oak), “dill” “coconut” etc. etc. And yes I have tried said wines with tons of age and for me they don’t integrate. Really not a problem, leaves more wine for those who enjoy them. Everyone wins.

Tom

Sure, but that has a lot more to do with decisions on the char level and how the producer implements the oak. Doesn’t change the fact that the use of oak isn’t the problem. Oak is and can be extremely beneficial to wine and we focus too much on the extremes because we are buying at a price point in which prominent oak characteristics can and will happen.

Why is the use of oak not the problem? Are you saying that it is used improperly and that’s the problem? There are many who are very sensitive to oak in wines in general, and cabs generally have a ton of new oak influence relative to other varieties. I would think that historically, cab and perhaps pinot have been very new oak dominant - though it comes across quite differently between these two varieties.

To me it’s a ‘balance’ thing - if the oak is ‘too noticeable’, it’s no different than alcohol being too noticeable, ripe fruit being too noticeable, etc . . .

Am I missing something here?

[Jidhin_R]

I believe Beta Wines are neutral oak cabs. Might need some confirmation though.

[Tom_DeBiase]

“Sure, but that has a lot more to do with decisions on the char level and how the producer implements the oak.”

Which is exactly my point. What ends up in the bottle is all that matters to me.

Tom

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

“Sure, but that has a lot more to do with decisions on the char level and how the producer implements the oak.”

Which is exactly my point. What ends up in the bottle is all that matters to me.

Tom

I think we’re speaking past each other and you’re missing my overall point.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

Why is the use of oak not the problem? Are you saying that it is used improperly and that’s the problem? There are many who are very sensitive to oak in wines in general, and cabs generally have a ton of new oak influence relative to other varieties. I would think that historically, cab and perhaps pinot have been very new oak dominant - though it comes across quite differently between these two varieties.

To me it’s a ‘balance’ thing - if the oak is ‘too noticeable’, it’s no different than alcohol being too noticeable, ripe fruit being too noticeable, etc . . .

Am I missing something here?

My overall point is that it’s not about the vessel itself. In fact, the vessel is actually a good thing in the overwhelming majority of cases (do you really want to make or drink a Cab made in SS that is over $20? I honestly doubt that). The varietal takes to the vessel very well and it seems to quite like it.

We’re goalpost shifting from my first post into personal preferences and I’m not gonna get bogged down in that or playing constant whataboutisms with one-off producers. Adam makes these threads to stir the pot and he’s successfully done that.

[Adam_Frisch]

I believe Beta Wines are neutral oak cabs. Might need some confirmation though.

I don’t think so, I got an oak profile on their Vare Vineyard bottling. Less than the normal Napa level, but it was there.

I nominate you to make a California non-oak Cabernet. Count me in for 4 bottles!

Ah, maybe I do have some ulterior motives in this thread… Time will tell.

Yes, Cab is expensive in general. But there’s also a lot of it planted. Napa, Sonoma, yes, pricey. Everywhere else, a little less so. Santa Barbara/Paso is about half of Napa. And when you go to El Dorado County and Lodi, it’s another half of that.

We’re goalpost shifting from my first post into personal preferences and I’m not gonna get bogged down in that or playing constant whataboutisms with one-off producers. Adam makes these threads to stir the pot and he’s successfully done that.

Partly. I want you to know that I’ve actually ordered the unoaked suggestions here to try. I did not order Stony Hill as “low oak influence” is not what I’m necessarily looking for right now, as I can tell I get those in Ceritas, Enfield and perhaps Beta already. I’m looking for the extreme opposite of the norm to get a different reference point.

[JDavisRoby]

Following. Have a friend who is allergic to oak. Can’t drink whiskey or most red wine. I’m always looking for a recommendation for him.

Has your friend ever had a reaction to these products, or is it based on some other sort of criteria?

Yes. He reports the initial reaction began with whiskey and then he experienced it with red wine. After doing a test with an allergist he was informed he had an allergy to oak and to avoid any oak aged drinks or smoke.

[Greg_Smith]

Zero interest in a Cab with NO oak.

[bretrooks]

If you track down old bottles from California, you can find un-oaked Cab…because a lot of historic wineries initially aged their wine in redwood tanks. I suspect that’s not exactly what you’re asking about, though.

[Rich_Brown]

Why is the use of oak not the problem? Are you saying that it is used improperly and that’s the problem? There are many who are very sensitive to oak in wines in general, and cabs generally have a ton of new oak influence relative to other varieties. I would think that historically, cab and perhaps pinot have been very new oak dominant - though it comes across quite differently between these two varieties.

To me it’s a ‘balance’ thing - if the oak is ‘too noticeable’, it’s no different than alcohol being too noticeable, ripe fruit being too noticeable, etc . . .

Am I missing something here?

My overall point is that it’s not about the vessel itself. In fact, the vessel is actually a good thing in the overwhelming majority of cases (do you really want to make or drink a Cab made in SS that is over $20? I honestly doubt that). The varietal takes to the vessel very well and it seems to quite like it.

We’re goalpost shifting from my first post into personal preferences and I’m not gonna get bogged down in that or playing constant whataboutisms with one-off producers. Adam makes these threads to stir the pot and he’s successfully done that.

Well…that and as a roundabout way of doing some market research and promoting the next wine that he might make. I’ve never met him…but he definitely seems very intentional with his posts.

[Jidhin_R]

I believe Beta Wines are neutral oak cabs. Might need some confirmation though.

I don’t think so, I got an oak profile on their Vare Vineyard bottling. Less than the normal Napa level, but it was there.

I nominate you to make a California non-oak Cabernet. Count me in for 4 bottles!

Ah, maybe I do have some ulterior motives in this thread… Time will tell.

Yes, Cab is expensive in general. But there’s also a lot of it planted. Napa, Sonoma, yes, pricey. Everywhere else, a little less so. Santa Barbara/Paso is about half of Napa. And when you go to El Dorado County and Lodi, it’s another half of that.

We’re goalpost shifting from my first post into personal preferences and I’m not gonna get bogged down in that or playing constant whataboutisms with one-off producers. Adam makes these threads to stir the pot and he’s successfully done that.

Partly. I want you to know that I’ve actually ordered the unoaked suggestions here to try. I did not order Stony Hill as “low oak influence” is not what I’m necessarily looking for right now, as I can tell I get those in Ceritas, Enfield and perhaps Beta already. I’m looking for the extreme opposite of the norm to get a different reference point.

He switched barrels starting in 2015 to 600L for all Cabs. So 2014 may have some new oak but I doubt much after speaking with him. Again havent gone back to confirm but he is certainly in that minimal interventionist group.

[Justin_S1]

Arnot Roberts is pretty low in oak, but they still use some new oak if I recall.

[Brandon_R]

I just checked the website and it doesn’t say much about technique, but I seem to remember someone here posting about minimal influence wines being made Nicole Walsh at Ser Winery. I ordered some of their Cabernet Sauvignon and it was truly unique and showed no oak character that I could discern. Maybe they use no new oaky / if any at all?

[Adam_Frisch]

Thanks for tip. I’ll check in with Nicole.

[Benjamin_Hand]

I think the idea of trying a completely unoaked cabernet is pretty interesting. A cabernet done completely in steel tanks or concrete seems different to me than one done with no new oak. I don’t see why it’s so hard to imagine why someone (especially a winemaker) would want to find an example of a cabernet made only with steel tanks or concrete. I’d be interested to try one (although I recommended the Foxglove and have had their Zin and Chard, I haven’t had the Cab).