Mission Impossible: unoaked California Cab?

[John_Morris]

Why is oak a bad thing for Cab? I think people here get too infatuated with it when oak is generally beneficial to wine.

Now, charring the bejesus out of a barrel and using all sorts of new oak lipstick is annoying, but I really don’t think I’d want to drink a stainless steel aged Cab

1. Adam is curious about many things.
2. He isn’t afraid to troll a bit.

Frankly, I’m now curious if there are any made in concrete eggs, since those are sometimes used for syrah and other dense reds.

[PeterH]

To be fair to California. Who can name a non-oaked Cabernet anywhere in the world?

Here is one, Cyriaque Rozier “Les Traverses de Fontanes”.

a civilized pursuit

It doesn’t get great reviews on cellartracker, yet some enjoy it.

[Clayton_Wai-Poi]

To be fair to California. Who can name a non-oaked Cabernet anywhere in the world?

Here’s one:

16401 detail

I’ve had it a couple of times and enjoyed it. Cheap, cheerful and characterful.

[CFu]

I was at a tasting in 2018 and someone poured me his brother’s cab from Napa area.

He was gifted some grapes while working at a winery.

He did full stem inclusion. Stainless.

It was… um… interesting to say the least.

[Alan_Rath]

Un-oaked, or no new? I’m not positive, but I think the Ceritas Cab is pretty low on oak. Arnot-Roberts used to be similar, I believe.

[Adam_Frisch]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I meant no discernible oak influence, so I suppose 3rd fill neutral barrels would be OK, but no new oak.

Thanks for the Foxglove and the French one - they seem like the only ones so far that fit the bill. I might try the Foxglove.

[larry_schaffer]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally almost isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I meant no discernible oak influence, so I suppose 3rd fill neutral barrels would be OK, but no new oak.

Thanks for the Foxglove and the French one - they seem like the only ones so far that fit the bill.

Interesting discussion - and of course the ‘challenge’ is that even 3rd fill barrels can still offer some ‘oak’ aromatic and flavor characteristics . . . I would think some whole cluster in the absence of oak might bring some interesting characteristics - as long as it’s not too overwhelming. And of course with American oak, even 3+ fill barrels oftentimes still give off vanilla and coconut aromatics.

I guess the same question could be asked about Pinot Noir domestically as well - I’m gonna be bottling my first ones up and they are all being aged entirely in 4+ year old French oak and there is no ‘discernible’ oak - it’ll be fun to get feedback on those . . .

Cheers.

[Robert_Dentice]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I meant no discernible oak influence, so I suppose 3rd fill neutral barrels would be OK, but no new oak.

Thanks for the Foxglove and the French one - they seem like the only ones so far that fit the bill. I might try the Foxglove.

Adam - Cabernet is expensive. Simple. I am not surprised that the two cement and steel examples presented so far are both $15 wines. Nothing wrong with that it is just a fact. If you buy expensive fruit you have to sell it for high prices.

I sometime/mostly prefer second wines from certain wineries because they don’t use expensive oak and other techniques that make them tough to drink when they are young.

I nominate you to make a California non-oak Cabernet. Count me in for 4 bottles!

[m_ristev]

please use amphora while you are at it

[Robert_Dentice]

please use amphora while you are at it

How about one old barrel, one amphora and one stainless.

Adam has nothing but time to help us answer these questions : )

[JulianD]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I would argue the opposite; maybe it’s just a function of cab tasting better with oak (even if neutral/used)- I’m sure it’s been tried in the past, if it fell flat, winemaker wouldn’t remake it.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

Why is oak a bad thing for Cab? I think people here get too infatuated with it when oak is generally beneficial to wine.

Now, charring the bejesus out of a barrel and using all sorts of new oak lipstick is annoying, but I really don’t think I’d want to drink a stainless steel aged Cab

1. Adam is curious about many things.
2. He isn’t afraid to troll a bit.

Frankly, I’m now curious if there are any made in concrete eggs, since those are sometimes used for syrah and other dense reds.

I’m well aware of point #2, lol! Though I do feel like Adam should probably look towards going through WSET diploma to answer some of these questions as a lot of them are answered to an extent in units 2 and 3.


Iirc, Pontet-canet has been using clay amphora since 2012. I don’t know the exact amounts and if it’s still done, but I do feel like they did it.

[Vince_T]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally almost isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I meant no discernible oak influence, so I suppose 3rd fill neutral barrels would be OK, but no new oak.

Thanks for the Foxglove and the French one - they seem like the only ones so far that fit the bill.

Interesting discussion - and of course the ‘challenge’ is that even 3rd fill barrels can still offer some ‘oak’ aromatic and flavor characteristics . . . I would think some whole cluster in the absence of oak might bring some interesting characteristics - as long as it’s not too overwhelming. And of course with American oak, even 3+ fill barrels oftentimes still give off vanilla and coconut aromatics.

I guess the same question could be asked about Pinot Noir domestically as well - I’m gonna be bottling my first ones up and they are all being aged entirely in 4+ year old French oak and there is no ‘discernible’ oak - it’ll be fun to get feedback on those . . .

Cheers.

Since we’ve established that cab franc is in fact “cab”, one would be remiss not to mention Larry’s amazing 2016 Tercero aberration cab franc, which is 100% cab franc, 100% whole cluster, and saw zero oak. By some margin, it’s my favorite Tercero red I’ve tasted, and I’ve been watching keenly for the day that Larry decides to make it again!

[Neal.Mollen]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

Except that several have been posted already.

[Anton_D]

Following. Have a friend who is allergic to oak. Can’t drink whiskey or most red wine. I’m always looking for a recommendation for him.

Has your friend ever had a reaction to these products, or is it based on some other sort of criteria?

[Rick_Bollig]

Nothing wrong with oak and for most wines it improves them. It’s just telling that there literally isn’t any when it comes to Cab. Makes you wonder what’s wrong with the grape?

I meant no discernible oak influence, so I suppose 3rd fill neutral barrels would be OK, but no new oak.

Thanks for the Foxglove and the French one - they seem like the only ones so far that fit the bill. I might try the Foxglove.

Clark Smith (WineSmith) uses 15-20 YO barrels for his CS as I recall. He also keeps them in these neutral barrels for up to 7-8 years, which he can do w/o imparting a really heavy oak influence.

[Mariano_Chiaramonte]

Ambyth Estate in Paso Robles would do any kind of unorthodox stuff, although this is not 100% Cab Sav it could be a good example:

2015 Cabernet Sauvignon — AmByth Estate

[Howard_Cooper]

Following. Have a friend who is allergic to oak. Can’t drink whiskey or most red wine. I’m always looking for a recommendation for him.

Is old oak a problem for him?

[Howard_Cooper]

I’d love to try some. FWIW, I know great Syrah can be made without oak, having had it from concrete eggs; didn’t miss the oak one bit. Cheers

I have seen Bordeaux made from concrete eggs or concrete amphora, but they were then aged in oak barrels. Here is an example from Pontet Canet.

I will be surprised if you find any Cabernet Sauvignons aged (as opposed to fermented) in stainless or concrete. My guess is that producers who age in older oak are not looking for oak flavors but rather are looking for some interaction between the wine and air.

[Tom_DeBiase]

RYME Cab Franc is half done in amphora and half in VERY old barrels then blended. There is no oak influence at all. Been a buyer for several years, terrific stuff.

Ryan used to make a Cabernet Sauvignon from Peacelands Vineyard (destroyed in the 17 fires). If you can find some only old barrels used, like the Cab Franc, terrific stuff. Here is a tasting note of the Cab from a few years ago

TN: 2014 Ryme Cellars Cabernet Sauvignon and 2015 Idlewild Barbera