Interested in hearing experience folks have in using these and the pros and cons. 44s has insulated walls which I’m thinking are better for retaining heat. 44s also has built in rotator bars.
Dave,
I use 48’s as I prefer to keep my fermentations cooler.
I think 44’s retain too much heat (for me) and I have found them harder to cool once they get above the temp. I like.
Best, Jim
Dave,
I’ve been using 44s(t bins) and 48s for the last 7 years and have been very happy with them. They are relatively light(compared to stainless tanks), extremely durable, and easy to clean. The t bins are great because you can get one ton in them and we tend to work in one to two ton lots. With my press I get two barrels of free run and half a barrel of press wine. So two t bins will give you a full barrel of press wine, which is nice to keep seperate. The 48’s are nice because we get four barrels of wine out of them (+/- 3 barrels of free run and a barrel of press wine)(1.5+tons). The 48’s are larger, so they can build and hold more heat than the t bins, but they are more difficult to warm up at the end of a cold soak. They are pretty tall to bucket skins out of the bottom after the wine been pumped out, but it is doable. The only draw back I can see to these bins is the ability to heat and cool them, unless you get/have heating/cooling plates. I have a stainless coil that I hook up to my hot water to warm the must, getting the yeast going, or keeping them going in the end.
I think the issue is the double wall construction of the 44’s which hold the heat in more than the single wall of the 48’s. I agree with you that a full 48 will get hotter than a full 44. But seems like a ton in a 44 would be hotter than a ton in a 48 (single wall and larger, so more surface area to dissipate heat). I’ve never done that comparison tho.
That was what I meant.
FWIW, a couple of 44’s in the winery last year started getting too hot for the winemaker and he had to pull the fruit and put a plastic garbage can full of dry ice in the bin and then put the fruit back in. Even then, it took awhile to get the temp. back down.
That process scared me to death.
With the 48’s I just run a couple fins in them and get results pretty quick. Although, in 48’s, I’ve never had a ferment go above 90 degrees.
Best, Jim
We ferment everything in T-Bins (44s). We don’t get a full ton of crushed fruit in them… more like 2/3 of a ton (or 1.5 picking bins). That leaves a decent amount of space for the cap when fermentation peaks. With that volume, we’ve never had a ferment get too hot.
The smaller volume also makes cold soak mixing of the must to take readings easier than with 1.5 tons of must in a 48. We also feel the smaller volume allows us to get better quality readings since we’re better able to homogenize the must. Punchdowns during fermentation are also easier due to the smaller volume. Might not be important to all you young, strong folk… but my older bones look for any break they can get.
There’s also something else cool about T-Bins since they’re not square. Since T-Bins don’t hold too much fruit, we dump them straight into our press. No need to pull off any juice. We have a front dumping bin dumper for our forklift, which has a set of prongs that extend over the top of the bins to hold them in place as you dump. We have a shorter set of prongs that hold in the picking bins, and then another set positioned higher up that fit over the T-Bins. Since the T-Bins aren’t square, the picking bin prongs are just short enough that the T-Bin still fits while they’re attached. So we don’t ever have to move the prongs!! A HUGE timesaver in the winery.
I also prefer the Tbins (44s–never knew the official name/number until now) over the 48s. Other than what Brian already mentioned as far as advantages go, the Tbins are much easier to clean than their larger cousins. Not only are they easier to tip over and get inside to scrub because of their smaller size, but Tbins have 4 straight sides. 48s have these strange bends and curves inside that make cleaning much more difficult. And getting the last bit of water out of them is a challenge because of the design.
Lids on both Tbins and 48s have something terrible in common–they both suck. Tbin lids prior to 2003 used to be much, much better. Macroplastics changed the material and design after that, all for the worse. Were they trying to save money? I’d gladly pay more to get the old design back. The lids crack at the corners pretty much the minute you snap them down onto the Tbin, and if not then, definitely when you remove the lid. 48s lids are even worse, if that’s possible. Not only do they crack during the first use, but entire sides of the lids will start to peel away from the center. Luckily, shrink wrap will hold them together, but it’s all pretty ridiculous given the cost of these lids. And miraculously, lids on the 24a bins (1/2 ton fruit bins) are excellent–never had a problem with one, yet.
I agree that the 48s are a pain in the ass to clean, drain and dump into the press. If you really fill them up, their proportions make for too thick a cap, and good luck punching it if you include stems. Everything about them seems awkward, including the fact that they seem inordinately heavy. I’ve also had T-bins and Bonar bins run up to higher temps than I would like (and have consequently used more dry ice than I would like), so I’ve settled on 325 gal, single wall plastic totes as my econo-fermenter of choice. I think that if you have good access to all the heating/cooling plates and glycol you need, then a wide variety of fermenters can work. If you don’t, I would rather start with something single walled and throw a layer of insulation on it when necessary rather than start with a double walled/insulated fermenter that may require dry ice.
Interesting. I’ve only used 48s, but like T-bins in theory for a variety of reasons mentioned. 48s have lots of little places that are hard to clean. They’re tough to get all the water out. I’ve almost lost a thumb holding them upside down with one hand while hosing them out, then holding them there to drain as well as possible. Especially as I’m now in the 40s I’m with Brian Loring…maybe the smaller bins would be easier.
Question though – what about space? Floor space is usually at a premium in almost any winery I’ve worked. Don’t all those T bins take up too much room? Aren’t 48s a little more vertical so aren’t you able to get more tons in the same square footage? Or do you Californians have more room than you know what to do with???
I"m with Ed- never knew the official names! We have some 44’s, but mostly we use 1/2 ton bins. I prefer them because they stay cooler and have greater skin contact due to their slightly larger diameter.
And yeah, the lids suck.
I like having a varied collection of wencos, 44s and 48s that I can pull out depending on the temperatures I’m expecting, size of the lot and desired fermentation temp. I tend to avoid the Boner bins because I’ve had too many problems with fermentations overheating in the past in those, but I really wished I had a few at the end of last year. Boners have super bomber insulated tops.
Usually it works like this: in the early season I run mostly wencos and 44s with 2/3 to 3/4 of a ton in them. In October and November I stick to 44s and 48s that are pretty full. Except for grenache. Grenache likes to get hot, no matter what time of year or what bin its in. Also, I have had loads of problems with overheating the 48s in Paso, which is why folks stick to smaller fermentations there (plus the larger surface area supposedly helps burn off alcohol), and headaches keeping the wencos hot enough in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I have had better luck with native fermentations in the 48s because they heat up more slowly and natives tend toward EA when the surface to volume ratio is too large. It helps to have a collection of heavy duty black plastic with bungees, lids and clean cotton bedsheets (no polyester for my babies), the varied use of which can affect temperature by a critical degree or two.
John. Invest in a bin dumper. Worth every penny. Bucketing is a disaster. Brian. Interesting point on the 44s and the bin dumper. I had never even considered that.
I use both… I have a couple of T-bins and some 48s… I our cool climate, especially in October, I’ve never had any problem keep the temperature from getting out of control and occasionally I have to turn on the heat to make sure the last stragglers finish up in timely manner… I like t-bins better because they hold more in a smaller space…
why doesn’t somebody “build a better mouse trap”? or at least lids?
as someone not ITB (but supports TB), how expensive are the 44 and 48 t-bins? i would assume you don’t have to buy new ones every year, so you only purchase when you have more grapes?
Someone, please design and manufacture nice lids for t bins and, while you’re at it, how about a plate that can submerse the cap that is not to heavy and easily cleanable…
Thank you- let me know when they’re ready and I’ll buy them.
I really miss the ability to punch a bunch of these down without getting on ladders. The lids are horrible and paper thin on the 48s. Pushing these down too hard can crack them at the corners and they warp. The worst is getting fruit flies stuck in the syran wrap when you try to seal the lids. Not fun.
The issue for me is the part that snaps the lids on. Every year I threaten to hammer all the indentations flat so the lids just fit like the top on a box of chocolates. But I’m afriad that if the lids warp a bit, that without the snap tight feature, they might not fit well. And we need the tops to lay flat and cover well because we like to hose down everything with ozone water after doing punchdowns.
BC, The prices seem to go up every year, and yes, we only buy more when we expect more fruit. I can’t remember exact prices, but with lids the 1/2 ton bins are in the $300 range, Tbins(44s) are in the $400 range, and 48s must be close to $500 by now. Bonar bins are over $500 I believe.
I don’t know why I didn’t get on the Bonar bin bandwagon years ago. They do get super hot, and they have been known to lead to overheated/stuck fermentations, so maybe I’m better off. But their construction is worlds better than anything made by Macroplastics. Bonars are practically military grade while Macroplastics are like kids’ toys in comparison.
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