Italian Wine - I Admit, I Don't Really Love It

WINE TALK
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At @ToddFrench 's request, I finally post this topic here. First, I own a good bit of Italian wine. I’ve gone through a bunch of whites, and still own a good bit of Barolo, Brunello, Sangiovese, Super Tuscans, Merlots, and have owned and drank through various Aglianicos, Montipulcianos, Barberas, etc. Even some syrah and Nerello Mascalese. Second, I’ve had all sorts of styles and ages of many of those wines, whether old school, modern, or in between. Third, I do not dislike Italian wine, but I don’t really love it. I’m coming to a point at which I almost always believe there is a better option available (for my tastes), especially if food is not involved.

I struggle in part with acid, tannin, fruit, and alcohol “balance” in many of these. Even at 20+ years, many barolos are still hugely tannic, even if admirably complex. Same with barbaresco. I often wonder if cru barbaresco will ever be enjoyable wines. I’ve had 50 year olds, but at some point the fruit, which was never sweet, fades and the wines are volatile and savory with faded floras. I sometimes find that aged Italian wines, while they can be complex and interesting, are not particularly satisfying compared to quality / price peers in other regions.

On top of that, I feel that for some Italian wines once legendary, like, say, Ornelaia or Sassicaia, they’re merging into Napa-esque high alcohol high extract styles. They’ve lost some of that intermediate position between Napa and Bordeaux, with a twist.

Then if we look at certain Brunellos, or even pure Sangioveses, like, for example 2016 Piccolomini Pianrosso or basically any vintage of Flaccianello, you’re staring down 15+% alcohol for a massive, rich wine.

Those tidbits are just scratching the surface, but I’m not here to write a novel.

I’ve only been blown away by maybe 2 Italian wines in the past decade, a Giuseppe Mascarello Monprivato and an Aldo Conterno Granbussia. I’ve had other wines I thought were very good, but do not find myself reaching for them when I’m looking for a bottle of wine to open.

What am I missing, if you love Italian wines, why? Do you agree with my take?

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Interesting to see this. In the early days of the wine boards, I formed the thesis from reading lots of posts that Italian wines were the one major category that didn’t get many “meh” reactions but got lots of love and lots of hate (whereas the other major reasons all got lots of love and maybe some meh but very little hate). But, hey, you’re that guy!

I’m not a fan of the modern/internationally styled reds and I agree with your comments about them.

What do I love about the ones I love? It’s hard to describe. They are to me, unmistakeably Italian in a way that wines from other countries aren’t always as distinctive. They have an acidic zing and a great balance of fruit vs earth flavors. Nothing else tastes like them. They are great with food. Great non-spoofed Barolo, Brunello, Chianti, and Taurasi are among my favorites and great reds from elsewhere just scratch a different itch.

But even wines like Ornellaia were great (if less distinctive) back in the day ('98 Ornellaia was fabulous). I stopped buying those when their pricing entered luxury good territory, though, so have missed their reported transition to high-extract Napa-esque styling.

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It’s good to see posts like this, even if I’m in the camp of getting great joy in Italian wines, and indeed what’s a bit problematic for you is often exactly what I seek (most notably acid levels).

Why am I happy? Tastes differ and understanding our own tastes is crucial, and massively more useful that chasing the latest 98 pointer from a shouty critic.

What are you missing? Nothing obvious IMO, rather you’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not a target-rich environment for wines you’ll enjoy. It reminds me a little of Champagne for us. What we’ve liked has invariably been at the top end of what we’d want to spend, and indeed Krug MV being ideal for our tastes, but is now priced well beyond what we could justify. Your reference to Granbussia and Monfortino feel similar, albeit both are a lot more expensive now than Krug.

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Thank you for this. It’s not that I don’t like Italian wine, but I definitely haven’t found the right Sangiovese yet.

Maybe consider the stems you are using. For my palate, Italian reds show noticeably better in a Grassl 1855.

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You know I concur.

Related to the theme of my text before our guy’s trip, “I’ve never had an Italian wine that truly wowed me…”. So Charlie brings like a 50 year old Barolo, and Todd brings a 1978 Produttori. The latter was dead the former was listless. I will concede, the 2000 Granbussia was outstanding. But therein is the problem, three wines to impress, and only one shows. And then this past weekend, went to a special dinner with some friends, and my buddy brought a 2000 Barolo, it was absolutely dead, stunk. That seems to be my normal experience with Italian wines. That said, I do buy a fair bit of Produttori and Felsina Chianti, but generally drink them rather young and for basic enjoyment during the week with meals. It is atypical for me to reach out to buy a whopper of an Italian wine for a special occasion, although I do have a few bottles of Flaccienello.

So that is a summary of my history with Italian wines. Hence, I am not a player in the space at all.

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Well, I either use my Glasvin design or Grassl 1855s, so it isn’t that.

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So, this is a thread for the hard of tasting?

“Supertuscans” (especially non-Tuscan varieties) are an abortion, or should be. Masseto being the exception that proves the rule.

At some point, your palates will mature and you will discover that Nebbiolo is the greatest red wine variety in the history of the world. Or you will wallow in lesser varieties and not go to heaven after you die.

Seriously, most wine from Italy and everywhere else is shit. Especially Supertuscans made from Bordeaux varieties. But Nebbiolo, properly and traditionally made and raised, is the apogee of red wine. Trust me on this; I once mortgaged my home to buy ‘82 Bordeaux in quantity and my only regret is that I didn’t buy Nebbiolo with the money.

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Will this happen only after I sear off my tastebuds by pounding barrels of peaty, smoky scotch neat, destroying my ability to perceive tannins?

Are there some relatively recent (last 25 years) vintages I should be targeting?

Would you agree with Alfert that Italian wines seem to have a greater fail rate than many other peer groups?

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While I do enjoy Italian wines, I find real truth in some of these sentiments, which makes me wonder if I enjoy Italian wines despite these rather frequent ‘shortcomings’

I think the only suitable solution is for the next Berserker Boys’ Mountain Jamboree to be in Italy (and apparently at some elevation to keep on theme) - once we experience them within the culture and food of the region from which they hail, we’ll jump on board.

It’s a sacrifice we may have to make.

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Toga Party!!!

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I no longer drink whisky at cask strength, due to age and experience. If your premise was correct, my shot tastebuds would gravitate to plush and grotesque California cult cabs and similar ilk, which I abhor. My sensibilities and my tastebuds don’t like those wines. At all.

Taste some traditional Langhe and Alto Piemonte Nebbiolo. Then work your way to the famous Barolo and Barbaresco. I get more pleasure from the former on a consistent basis than even N Rhône, Bordeaux, Burgundy et al.

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My only response is who cares? Why is this even worth posting? There are plenty of wines that I don’t love. I collect and drink mostly the wines I love. You should do the same. Live and be well.

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Because Todd asked me to after we had an offline discussion about it. He thought it was a worthwhile discussion, and we were both interested to see other folks’ take on my position. No one should care what I like and don’t, but I am curious if others have a similar opinion or experiences. Why would anyone care which champagnes I like? And yet we’ve got a super active group trading thoughts on champagnes in one of the most active threads on the forum.

But to your last two sentences, cheers, and right back at you Ken!

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And if Todd asked you to jump off a bridge… :crazy_face: :berserker: :sunglasses:

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Only if Robert goes first. Is bungee jumping still a thing?

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It usually takes at least 20 posts before someone poops on a thoughtful missive. You managed to do it in 11.

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He did ask “What am I missing, if you love Italian wines, why? Do you agree with my take?” and I am rather known around here as one of those who love Italian wine, even though that is a bit of an exaggeration.

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I think Ken_V are misunderstanding the idea of a discussion forum.

Back on topic, then I don’t think you are missing anything. I guess they are just not for you. As you say then some of these wines are actually a bit extreme on some parameters like tannins, alcohol and acidity (I often notice a bit of VA in many Italian reds which helps calling some of these wines blind much easier).

Personally Nebbiolo is one of my favourite grapes. I often get tremendous joy out of really young Nebbiolo with or without food. Guess the tannins don’t bother me that much.

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The boys would all follow for sure. Well, except for @Jorge_Henriquez, he would not believe that I actually jumped. Even if he saw the elote thrill happen.

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It’s the Berserker version of Toddwin’s Law.

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