Is Philly this Country's 3rd best food city?

[Matt_Thomas]

@Sarah Kirschbaum

I believe that the very best food cities in the world, the truly top-of-the-top, not just places where you have a blast eating over the weekend (don’t get me wrong –that’s really important, too, it’s just a different question), have to have ALL of the following:

1. High-end dining. Doesn’t necessarily mean white tablecloths and tons of waiters, but we all have a general sense of what we’re talking about. Cooking that has seldom equaled technique, soul, excitement, great taste and a certain je ne sais quoi, all offered in a setting where what we see, hear, feel, and taste has been carefully tended to in order to produce an exquisite experience. Not everyone likes this kind of dining, I know. But it’s important. We can talk about why I think so another time.

2. A wide variety of ethnic, for lack of a better word, cuisines readily available and well executed with respect for and awareness of where they came from. Not every single country need be represented, of course.

3. A critical mass of strong 2nd tier restaurants, where the chefs are working hard to produce something truly special, not generic. This category would include, but is not limited to, the places where cooking is at or near the level of those high-end restaurants, in a much more casual setting.

4. A pervasive appreciation, on the part of both chefs and diners, of quality ingredients and the role they play in raising food, both simple and complex, to another level. Local bounty is a plus, for various reasons, but not necessary.

5. A dispersion of good, exciting, above-the-norm restaurants into various areas of the city, geographically speaking. I feel strongly about this one and would be happy to discuss why I think this is important at another time.

6. Chefs who take what they are doing seriously (not stodgily) at all levels. Where there are chefs who think perfecting the burger is just as important as perfecting the souffle.

7. A general sense of food being important and taken seriously in that city. Not every restaurant or every person, but a certain groundswell of feeling that food and quality food at that, is a part of this city’s identity.

8. Some innovation, experimentation and pushing of the boundaries going on; not necessarily as a rule, but present enough that it’s part of that city’s food identity. On the flipside…

9. Good, respected, examples of very traditional cuisines like Italian and French. The ones that manage to pay homage to the past and how those cuisines have been important, without getting stodgy.

I’m sorry – that’s all I can remember right now. I think I had 10 points in my original article.

So, applying these criteria, I believe that, in the US, only New York and San Francisco make it there. And that’s ok! To begin categorizing or ranking those cities that don’t have all of those things, I begin to look at how many of them are missing. The more that are missing, the further down the ladder that city belongs. To the point of the original post, Philadelphia is missing quite a few.

I like this list. However, I think the requirement of having a global presence is a bit unfair. This would preclude a place like Mexico City, which I think is one of the best food cities in NA.

[Tom_Gibson]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

To continue to digress from this unansweable query re: “Philly”. Deez, dat, etc…are more NY.

Sorry, but…unless you grew up on Mount Wershington, near the incline…those kids were better at it than Kroll.

Agree to disagree.

[Siun_O_Connell]

@MitchTallan

@Siun o'Connell

@MitchTallan

I am here in the awful wasteland of the Midwest. We have fairly large cities like Indianapolis, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Cleveland that are pretty bad given the population mass. It is easy to have less respect for your own backyard, as easy as it is to be biased in favor. From my perspective, Chicago is way overrated. It is understandably meat-centric, but also calculated. One Off Hospitality Group is behind three or four of Chicago’s so-called best restaurants and they leave me cold. As just one example, how can a city the size of Chicago with it’s stockyards-based history not sport a great offal restaurant like Chris Cosentino’s former place, Incanto? To a much greater degree than NYC, San Fran, Philly, and LA, Chicago thrives upon tourist traffic. The dull bored denizens of the midwest plains come to Chicago to shop and eat in the “big city” and by and large, Chicago’s dining scene caters to these (us) country bumpkins.

So not true … sorry. Take a glance around LTHforum - http://www.lthforum.com - for just a start.

I looked. Just what does that site prove, exactly? Here in my town we have this site alteatscolumbus.com. The fact that it exists does not prove that Columbus is a great place for hole-in-the-walls with great food.

I suggested the link in case you cared to actually learn about the Chicago food scene rather than simply dismiss it. Apparently you do not.

For those who do, LTHForum has been active since 2004 or so, has a high readership and curates a list of Great Neighborhood Restaurants that highlight the range of gems around Chicago. It’s also the spot to read the latest happenings at everywhere from Alinea and Grace to Maxwell street market … and don’t miss the Pho crawls around Argyle. (By the way, Chicago actually does have many neighborhoods with clusters of great spots to ear - again, you have to bother looking for them though - and between the L, taxis and ubers, transportation is a piece of cake). We also have a very special farmers market and a chef culture that leads to wonderful collaborations. But again, you have to want to experience it.

Then again, dissing Big Star perhaps says it all.

[Kevin_Porter]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Everyone doesn’t call it Phillly when referring to the city as a whole rather than neighborhoods.

Like people chewing gum loudly in some of them neighborhoods…it’s a choice.

What it reflects to those who are sensitive to the issue…may have modulated over the years. I do think it was somewhat of a class issue. (No quotation marks used. Using “Philly” and that “horrible accent” (which is horrible)…are often hand in hand. Somewhat akin to whether New Haven…gets strong accent on the “New” or on “Haven”. Because it is increasingly used, proves nothing, though, even if those sensitive to it become a minority.

Using a nickname like “Philly”, IMO, especially when comparing cities using the others’ real names…invites denigration.

I do hear ‘philly’ from Philadelphians (and suburbanites) more and more often, but ‘filuff-ya’ is still more prevalent

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Michael S. Monie

….I disagree that New Orleans meets the criteria as well, though I understand the argument. I don’t think it has true high-end, real emphasis on ingredients, innovation, or (and I realize this will be unpopular) real quality at the 2nd tier. I am not sure about good examples of traditional cuisines, as I’ve never looked for those there. I think it’s the epitome of a place where it’s really fun to eat, but it lacks the quality to reach the heights. That said, I admit I have less experience there than with most of the other cities we’re discussing.

Sarah, you clearly do not have much experience in New Orleans. I could run down your list and point to numerous examples for each of your traits for a food city. There is a reason that New Orleans was the first city featured on the PBS television series “Great Chefs of …” starting back in the late 80s.

However, you have really missed the boat on real quality at the 2nd tier. This is probably what I like most about New Orleans. Maybe you have just eaten at joints on Bourbon Street. If so, no argument here.[/quote]

You don’t give me much credit if you think I’d feel capable of making any kind of judgement based on “just (having) eaten at joints on Bourbon Street.” It’s true my experiences of New Orleans are more limited than with San Francisco or Los Angeles (where I go 5-6 times a year), or New York or Philadelphia (where I have lived), but all my trips there have been very carefully researched and the restaurants meticulously chosen, including recommendations from many on this board, chefs, and locals. I have not found New Orleans succeeds in meeting all the criteria of a truly great food city. Neither do a lot of people participating in this thread. I’m sure there are many others who, like you, feel it does. Respectfully disagreeing is fine.[/quote]

I’ve been commenting on N.O. as a food city on the"Unpopular Food Opinion" thread when I should have been here. I read Sarah’s list which is clearly a well conceived and comprehensive compilation of what makes a city a great food location. And it’s probably true that N.O. does not meet many of the stated criterium. But as I said on the other thread, New Orleans has an indigenous cuisine based on Creole dishes. While it may be true that many restaurants here are not sourcing the latest micro-greens currently in vogue, the abundance of fresh, affordable, local seafood available is a continual supply of ingredients that enable great eating year round. N.O. is small in population compared to the other cities in question and is a traditionally poor town. It’s not only possible to eat well here inexpensively, it’s likely.The emphasis on making “our own” food certainly has been an impediment to embracing world cuisine, but that situation has improved over the last couple of decades. Eating well is a daily priority here, both in the restaurants and in the home. We have “fun” eating here all of the time, not just on special occasions. To understand New Orleans’ relationship with eating and drinking, one must be immersed in it for more than a weekend. It’s like what Louis Armstrong replied when asked to explain jazz, “if you have to ask, you’ll never know”.[/quote]

Though this topic is somewhat interesting…to a degree…the idea of ranking food cities…is to me like ranking people. I have no idea where NOLA fits into the hierarchy, but it is my favorite food city in the world. Unique, unpredictable and doesn’t take its dining scene too seriously, ie, realizes cuisine is for pleasure and relaxation. I think I’ve been there enough over the years to understand it a bit.





The last time I was there was in 2014. My favorite meals were at Galatoires and Dooky Chase’s. My least favorite meal was, by far, at August (and I wasn’t even paying; a friend invited me). The meal at August, though it tried to include native ingredients, seemed fungible: like haute cuisine in any city. The portions were small; every dish had so many ingredients foie gras got lost in one of them. The service was almost intrusive…I still don’t know which one of the many people who stopped by to look at the wine and pour some was really the/a wine person there (so, I didn’t know who to offer a tasted of a Rousseau Chambertin I had brought and didn’t). I won’t argue “best” or champion, but…to me a food city, like a wine vintage, is an across the board thing…from pizza to profiteroles…at all prices and levels of “haute”. So, the only valid label for me is “favorite”. And, NOLA is that, though it might fail some of the criteria stated here, if I even understand them. To focus on the top of the top as determinative of something…I think does ratings a disservice. For the most part, such places are fungible…and not as much fun…which is , for me, what a great “food city” is all about.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@Kevin Porter

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

Everyone doesn’t call it Phillly when referring to the city as a whole rather than neighborhoods.

Like people chewing gum loudly in some of them neighborhoods…it’s a choice.

What it reflects to those who are sensitive to the issue…may have modulated over the years. I do think it was somewhat of a class issue. (No quotation marks used. Using “Philly” and that “horrible accent” (which is horrible)…are often hand in hand. Somewhat akin to whether New Haven…gets strong accent on the “New” or on “Haven”. Because it is increasingly used, proves nothing, though, even if those sensitive to it become a minority.

Using a nickname like “Philly”, IMO, especially when comparing cities using the others’ real names…invites denigration.

I do hear ‘philly’ from Philadelphians (and suburbanites) more and more often, but ‘filuff-ya’ is still more prevalent

Us patricians try to preserve the dignity of the name. So, we annunciate each syllable, just like we do with “att-ee-tude”.

[Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e]

I just really enjoy Cajun and Creole cuisine, and almost always would choose seafood to other proteins so NOLA will always be a great food city for me. Plus I have great memories there.

It meets my criterias:

•. Would I want to be transported there for my last meal? Well, yes I would though it might not be at the very top of that list.

• Would I want a dining weekend there? Hell yes, preferably a 3-day weekend, absolutely top of this list.

• Would I want to take a two week vacation centered around touring and cuisine? On the list, though some foreign spots would have more allure if getting there didn’t suck so badly.

• Would I live there and dine thru the city in retirement? I may do just that.

Plus I like to drink and NOLA supports this enthusiasm.

[Michael_S_Monie]

Other considerations in evaluating the food of Louisiana, whether it be the southwest (Cajun country) or the southeast including N.O. (where Creole cuisine dominates) are: sourcing local foodstuffs, farm to table, and making mundane (and at one time inexpensive) ingredients into something delicious have been the norm for a long time. Mostly out of necessity, cheaper cuts of meat that required cooking for a long time with moist heat were used while the best was sold to provide a livelihood. Pork and pork fat were and are used extensively for seasoning vegetables, especially beans and legumes. Paul Prudhomme and Emeril Lagasse took much of this to the world over the last few decades, but it remains a daily experience here. While much of the younger generations have minimal interest in anything but the most basic of food preparation, the cultural priorities of food preparation are so strong, there is little doubt that they will continue. We eat viscerally, not being interested in mind games with food, but emphasizing flavors and textures.

[Brian_Lynch]

Question:

If four Berserkers from this thread met by chance in person for the first time in NYC and decided to have dinner, how long do you think it would take to decide on the best place to go?

[ybarselah]

@Brian Lynch

Question:

If four Berserkers from this thread met by chance in person for the first time in NYC and decided to have dinner, how long do you think it would take to decide on the best place to go?

5 minutes

[MattBerto]

@MitchTallan

I am here in the awful wasteland of the Midwest. We have fairly large cities like Indianapolis, Columbus, Cincinnati, and Cleveland that are pretty bad given the population mass. It is easy to have less respect for your own backyard, as easy as it is to be biased in favor.

Little late to the game, but I needed to LOL at this a bit. “Wasteland of the Midwest”. You do know where “food” comes from, right? I’m not just talking about industrial corn and soybeans.

[MitchTallan]

You do know where “food” comes from, right? I’m not just talking about industrial corn and soybeans.

Laugh it up, I have no remaining pride and don’t care a wit. Not being all that bright, please advise me as to what the hell you ARE talking about besides corn and soybeans. If by chance you are talking about the infinitesimally small amounts of eating-livestock (as opposed to dairy, and “infinitesimally small” compared to the livestock factories in Missouri and KS), that meat largely goes to farmer’s neighbors and perhaps a tiny bit to some local butchers and restaurants. Again, the amounts are vanishingly small. I am way into Q. I have tried to source locally raised smaller pig (under 70 lbs) for years and I am talking about fairly heroic efforts-chasing every possible lead-without success.
Again, I am not bright, but perhaps you are not a critical reader either. The context of my sentence quoted by you was with respect of bigger cities having snorefest or vanilla dining scenes ranked from worst to mediocre as Indy>Cincy>Cowtown>Land of Cleve.

[MattBerto]

Part of the problem is that your definition of the “Midwest” appears to be “Cities within a 100 mile radius of Lima, Ohio.” Sure, most of the Ag production across the Nebraska-Minnesota-Illinois region is industrial, but within that there are plenty of smaller producers. If you can’t find local produce and meat I don’t know what to tell you; it’s almost difficult for me not to find it.

[K_F_o_l_e_y]

@Brian Lynch

I think Chicago is third and that Philly is well above DC and above Boston, but my sample size in Boston is not great so if Kevin Foley thinks differently it is best to go by that.

Apparently I should periodically search for my name on here, just in case the Philly crew is gossiping about me behind my back.

Philly is WAY better than Boston food-wise.

Boston is WAY better than Philly sports team-wise.

(5 yr Chicago->9 yr Seattle->9 yr Boston->5 yr Philly->2 yr Boston…)

[Frank_Drew]

@ybarselah

@Brian Lynch

Question:

If four Berserkers from this thread met by chance in person for the first time in NYC and decided to have dinner, how long do you think it would take to decide on the best place to go?

5 minutes

And that would be…?

[Frank_Drew]

@ybarselah

a solid bistro where you can bring wine for free?

I’d give my left one for a few of these around where I live.

[David_Cooper]

Doesn’t Pennsylvania have a state controlled liquor system? If yes instant disqualification.

Also how does Portland get so much love? It’s only half as good as Seattle.

[K_F_o_l_e_y]

But DE (no tax) and NJ are a short drive away (not to mention NYC).

So you can pretty much drink whatever you want at many of the best restaurants in the city, and zero corkage is typical. When it comes to BYOBing, there really isn’t anywhere else in the world like Philly.

[Sarah_Kirschbaum]

@David Cooper

Also how does Portland get so much love? It’s only half as good as Seattle.

Because those people disagree and think it’s many times better than Seattle. I for one can’t figure out why the food in Seattle is so generally mediocre, considering the access to great ingredients. I’ve been going for years for business, and have tried pretty much every recommendation on this board and from local friends, and I have yet to find more than one place, maybe two, I’m interested in returning to.

[David_Cooper]

Hi Sarah. Have you been to Le Pichet or Sitka and Spruce? Just asking. I’m not dropping the mike or anything but both places for me are unique and consistent.

Also Stateside and Rhione XIII.