White wine is the greatest value for me.
I can’t remember the last $50+ bottle of white that wasn’t profound in some way.
And how many $50+ reds disappoint? I will go out on a limb and say white wine provides at least 2x the enjoyment for the money for me.
Also, the Loire.
This is an interesting discussion. It’s made me think. Here’s a more refined response than I gave above.
It seems to me that in the everyday category, which for me is ~$13 to ~$22, I find little of interest in California. (Delicious recent exception: the 08 Ridge East Bench zin at $18.) In that range, I’d far rather drink southern French, Saumur/Chinon, dolcetto, barbera or something Spanish or Portuguese. The Californians in that price range tend to seem pretty generic to me.
Moving up a notch from there – say $25 to $50 – I have found some Cal wines I like a lot (Ridge, Copain’s lesser wines, Unti), from different grapes. But for my tastes those are the exception, and I can do better elsewhere for value in most cases.
I tend to find that I like Cal wines less the more they cost. The bigger the price tag, the higher the alcohol, the more risk of overripeness. Of course, that’s my palate. But I consider them terrible value in most cases.
Now, when you get to the “top tier” of cult cabs vs. Bordeaux, these days California probably has the edge, assuming you like the cults.
I don’t see higher end Cal syrahs or pinots as substitutable with Burgundy or the Northern Rhone, in the way that I think Cal cab and Bordeaux have become, or in the way that everyday wines might be. I don’t see much similarity between the syrah and pinot products on the two sides of the Atlantic.
she is big on porto!
I’m 53. I’ve been drinking European wines, mostly French and Italian, for 20 years. By your post you’re 13? Here’s a tip kiddo… learn what to buy. Be informed. Anyone who simply throws darts at an order form or buys indiscriminately off deal sites, retailer email hype etc is a fool.
Here’s another tip… don’t call other people liars.
I think every wine region has value and over priced wines. There is a lot of good value in CA today, but its easy to over pay for Napa Cabs too. Bordeaux has some great value especially if you get away from classified growths. Burgundy? yup. Lots of values in 1er Crus down to Bourgognes. Know your producers. Italy? While you can over pay for the big names (especially Tuscany and campagna), there is a lot of value even in Barolo and Chianti.
It pays to know what you are buying. Find a wine you like, and you can find good value for that wine.
This. The value is personal. When I first saw the OP I almost called Jack on saying that $100 per bottle wines were value… but if he makes enough that that money isn’t much to him (or would rather have three $100 wines than a case of $25 wines) then that’s HIS definition of value as is the fact that he finds Cali wines to do it for his palate.
Ultimately, there’s simply no one right universal answer. There’s a lot of good wine made in the US, France and Italy. You could spend your wine drinking life in any one of those countries and never run out of good wine. That’s one reason I react so strongly to the ridiculous 'oh all euro wines taste like dirt/have no fruit/etc" BS. It’s like saying all Cali wines are 16% fruit bombs. Sure you can find examples, but if you take some time to check out the region you can find good wines anywhere.
For me, I keep running into Cali wines that are so afraid of flavors that aren’t directly and easily related to the fruit that they taste polished and clean to me and thus lacking complexity and soul. Are there wines not like this? Yep. I do run across them sometimes. But there’s SO many wines that I know I like from the regions in France and Italy that I know that, for me I’ll stick to them. Universal truth? No, personal preference.
He didn’t call you a liar, Rick. First, you said “Or you could learn what you’re doing,” which was insulting, and then he suggested in sarcastic, colorful language that he couldn’t believe you hadn’t experienced the faults he described with European wines.
I agree with you that David’s characterization of Old World wines is off the mark, but your first comment was snotty.
Makes sense to me.
I’ve found that at every price point, I find more value in old-world wines than Cali. Others may disagree. That’s what makes this fun.
My first comment was MEANT to be snotty as I’m more than a bit tired of the idiotic characterization of European wines as dirty, fruitless messes, usually from the same people who take such offense at having the wines they like called alcoholic fruit bombs. Anyone who knows what they’re doing can easily avoid bad wines, so I wasn’t just being snotty, I was telling him to pay attention because if he was running into that a lot from European wines he wasn’t doing so.
And yes, his ‘colorful’ comment was calling me a liar.
BTW, I doubt that the best wine values come from either California or France. Both places have too much associated prestige and relatively high cost structures. Germany is probably equally suspect.
Values can probably best be found in places that I know nothing about, places with low cost structures that are trying to establish a reputation with consumers … Chile? Argentina? Spain? Does Lebanon have a wine industry?
Long way of saying that while I don’t know where the greatest values lie, I’m pretty sure it’s not California. And I’m pretty sure that some of the world’s worst values can be found in California (Napa) and France (Bordeaux and Burgundy).
I think you’re assuming “best value” refers to inexpensive wines, though. But just as that concept depends on one’s subjective preferences, it also varies based on price level. One could argue that New Zealand offers some of the best white wine values in the $8-10 price range, but I doubt New Zealand would be in the discussion if the question were “what are the best white wine values in the $40 price range” or “what are the most inexpensive places to buy 95-point caliber white wine.” In the latter questions, it could arguably be California or France.
Feck no!! I will say it again Feck no!
I have tons of Napa Cabs and a number of boutique Pinot’s and yes, they are excellent wines, but certainly not the best QPR wines out there.
I would have to vote for Italy. Some of the brunello’s I have been tasting have been absolutely excellent and reasonably priced. I can also buy vintage Barolo for reasonable prices when compared to higher end Napa Cab release prices and they are mature and ready to go. a 67 or 78 Barolo for $150 or less gives me great value (for me) for my $$$.
France? While I love Bordeaux and own a bunch of it. It has been priced out of my comfort zone. 05 was my last purchase of newly released wines. I back fill with older vintages (at lower prices) and they are ready to drink now. Some of the best surprises have been late 80’s “seconds” that gave what I consider a nice bang for the buck.
For whites, my opinion is the Loire Valley. One has to take a liking to those wines, but I believe with the right food combination, the QPR is unbeatable.
I like California wine. But it’s surprising to read posters calling Calif a value wine region. For $25 and under, the Rhone and Bordeaux, as well as South America have it beat by miles.
Had some nice South African wines recently that were good values, including the 2011 Nederburg Chenin Blanc. $6.99
Chris Seiber wrote: “The worst are probably white and red Burgundy, Napa cabernet and Bordeaux.”
Overall I agree.
IMO White Burgundy available in the U.S. is hands-down the worst wine value, because you’re paying big dollars for wines that won’t peak for 10 - 20 years and a huge percentage of them will be completely dead long before they hit their stride.
It was well over a decade ago that I first wrote “Red Burgundy is the only wine in the world where you can regularly pay over $100 for something thin and nasty”.
But there are fine (not great) White Burgundies out there at reasonable prices that easily make 5 - 10 years with no premox problems. And there are as many or more Red Burgundies out there at reasonable prices that peak at the same age or even younger and cost a song.
I am going to do something about getting these wines here, very soon.
M Dildine wrote: “On the Pinot front, 09 Village reds are priced at roughly par with high end offerings from Copain, Rhys, Littorai, Rochioli, Dehlinger, Williams Selyem, Mount Eden, Windy Oaks …”
With all due respect, we are not shopping in the same places. I just love paying ~$30 for an '09 Savigny-les-Beaune, and there are plenty of them out there at that price, or less, or more, sometimes for 1er Crus, not just Villages. Please, please let me know where I can buy high-end offerings from your CA producers for $30. I’m in for multiple cases.
As far as Napa Cabernet, it’s probably #2 (after white Burg) on my list of the World’s Worst Wine Values. But I’d make an Educated Guess that it is possible to find a really good bottle of Napa Cab at a reasonable price.
As far as Bordeaux (I assume we’re talking red here), I disagree. Lafite has become cult. All 1sts and super 2nds are indecently expensive. But with CAREFUL BUYING there is literally an ocean of really good wine out there at really good prices. In particular, it is possible to find really excellent wine at 10 years of age for incredible prices. I’ve been roaring the praises of Chateau Lanessan for decades now. You can buy the 2000 for ~thirty bucks at a lot of places in the U.S. As far as I’m concerned, case closed for the value of Bordeaux, as long as you know what you’re doing.
Dan Kravitz
$30, hell. You can get the 1996 of that from K&L for $20. And SHUSH UP about Savigny!!
Especially if it’s a JM score;)
I admit…it’s difficult for me to track with a question that at it’s heart says (paraphrasing) “are $100 dollar wines from California a better value than wines 2-20x the cost from France”. If my cellar were any indication, I guess my answer would be “California”, as I have more top-notch stuff from Napa than I do from Bdx or Burgundy. That’s probably just a matter of taste on my part, though I do really appreciate the uniqueness and sublime qualities of a well-aged BdX of good pedigree.
That said, I have a hard time placing any of those wines from France (Lafite, Margaux, Mouton, and on down the line) or Napa (Harlan, Scarecrow…or down the list to Maybach, Continuum, Buccella, Hourglass…) as “value wines”.
I truly wish I was in a sphere that would allow me to consider that question with some sincerity. But I’m not. So…my thoughts are…value can be found almost anywhere you look for it. Napa? Larkmead, ACV among others are tremendous. Lower cost? I think the best values are found abroad, and surprisingly often in France. Odd, in that with the movements in exchange rates one would think this couldn’t be true. But my experience, with a few exceptions, is that a newly found unknown gem from Europe tends to outperform a newly found unknown “gem” from California. I attribute that to a) in Europe, the “newly found gem” is a product from someone who has been farming for a bunch of years or is otherwise committed to the area’s tradition, whereas b) the “newly found gem” in Napa is more often the result of a highly paid corporate executive investing in his/her hobby (e.g. Foley…not the winemaker but the guy from Fidelity). Exceptions - of the bottles I’ve opened recently, I think that Bedrock, Arnot Roberts, and Kendric all represent domestic upstarts that are both a great value and true to tradition. That said, none of those hit a $15 price point, and there’s a lot of stuff from Europe at $15 or so that’s killer.
But…I digress in that I didn’t answer the original question. In the $100 and up category…Pinot, the nod goes to France/Burgundy. Too often domestically, higher price means fuller throttle. Burgundy is where it’s at, assuming one buys smartly. Bdx blends - I think the nod goes to US/Domestic. While I’ve never had a Bdx blend that could hold a candle to the '59 Lafite I had last year, I’ve never spent that amount of money on anything from California. Not even close. At 1/10th the price, I really enjoyed an aged Harlan a few months ago. Surprisingly refined, elegant…almost European. I’d take 10 of those (hypothetically) to one Lafite.
After drinking mostly French, German, and Spanish from 1980 to 2000 I decided it was time to try CA. In the intervening years I can’t say I’ve regretted this move and I now drink CA wines almost exclusively. Tonight a delightful 2009 Bedrock, Dolinsek, Zin. I sincerely hope that I’ll never move “up” again as I’ve never enjoyed wine as much as I have the last 10 years.