Is a Great Wine Palate God Given, Learned or Bought?

[Henry_Kiichli]

I’d hazard a guess that it is all three.

A highly sensitive sense of smell/taste is great, but of little use in wine circles without knowledge or vocabulary.

All the learning in the world is great, but of little use if the olfactory talents are lacking.

This reminds me of a discussion years back (here or at the OTHER place) about perfect pitch. I wrote something uninformed (and was correctly corrected by Tom Blach), but my point was basically the same. It (perfect pitch/perfect palate) is wonderful, but without the knowledge (musicality/wine learning/), it won’t get you very far.

I also think that a certain percentage of all people may have higher senses of smell or pitch, but many of them don’t go for wine or music.

[Joseph_MR]

Lettie Teague has an article on palates in WSJ today.

I’m in awe of people who can taste/evaluate a series of young Barolo. At a Vietti tasting last year, it was obvious I need more practice!

[Sc0tt_F_tzgerald]

@Gerhard P.

@Scott Fitzgerald

Why is it so important to be able to describe what you’re tasting? Can’t you just enjoy the wine?

Sure you can just enjoy … no problem … everybody can say subjectively “I like this - and I don´t like that” and for his own he/she is absolutely right - but why should you THEN have a great wine palate?

(everybody can go into a concert, listen … and say “I like / don´t like the music” - but that´s no great music expert)

You missed my point. I’m questioning why it’s even worth having a “great” palate - does it really increase your ability to enjoy wine?

[Bruce_Leiser_owitz]

@Scott Fitzgerald

You missed my point. I’m questioning why it’s even worth having a “great” palate - does it really increase your ability to enjoy wine?

Ah, now I see what you’re saying. And I think the answer mostly is yes, with at least one qualification.

If you think that enjoying wine requires discerning and appreciating the complexities and subtleties of each wine, then I think you need a very educated palate to maximize your enjoyment. Just as an example, say that you’ve never tasted a Bordeaux wine before. Someone pours you a 1989 Haut Brion. Without any experience or education, you can taste it and decide you like it. But if you have a very educated palate, I suspect most people will have a greater appreciation of that wine if they have a great palate. In other words, the more tasting experience you have, the more likely you are to smell and taste the complexities of a wine like a 1989 Haut Brion.

One caveat, though, is that a having a great palate may make you less tolerant of wines with flaws, or at least wines that aren’t very complex. You may find that your standards have changed drastically.

Bruce

[GregT]

I’m sorry, what qualifies Jennings as a great taster? A massive number of notes? I’ve found that his notes are about as useful as me throwing darts at the flavour wheel. The correlation between what he writes and my own experience is probably close to 0 (at least with RMP, I have a clear negative correlation). In fact, he is one of the few tasters who I’ve blocked on CT…

I don’t think anyone made that accusation!

[Sc0tt_F_tzgerald]

@Bruce Leiser_owitz

@Scott Fitzgerald

You missed my point. I’m questioning why it’s even worth having a “great” palate - does it really increase your ability to enjoy wine?

Ah, now I see what you’re saying. And I think the answer mostly is yes, with at least one qualification.

If you think that enjoying wine requires discerning and appreciating the complexities and subtleties of each wine, then I think you need a very educated palate to maximize your enjoyment. Just as an example, say that you’ve never tasted a Bordeaux wine before. Someone pours you a 1989 Haut Brion. Without any experience or education, you can taste it and decide you like it. But if you have a very educated palate, I suspect most people will have a greater appreciation of that wine if they have a great palate. In other words, the more tasting experience you have, the more likely you are to smell and taste the complexities of a wine like a 1989 Haut Brion.

One caveat, though, is that a having a great palate may make you less tolerant of wines with flaws, or at least wines that aren’t very complex. You may find that your standards have changed drastically.

Bruce

Bruce, I buy that argument.

[A_So]

@GregT

I’m sorry, what qualifies Jennings as a great taster? A massive number of notes? I’ve found that his notes are about as useful as me throwing darts at the flavour wheel. The correlation between what he writes and my own experience is probably close to 0 (at least with RMP, I have a clear negative correlation). In fact, he is one of the few tasters who I’ve blocked on CT…

I don’t think anyone made that accusation!

OP’s article did, or at least implied it.

[Oliver_McCrum]

@Bruce Leiser_owitz

I just don’t consider identifying wines blind to the sine qua non of a “great palate.” I don’t think you can identify wines blind without having excellent sensory and memory skills, but I’ve met lots of people who have what I consider to be an excellent palate who nevertheless have a difficult time distinguishing blind between wines from Vineyard A and Vineyard B, especially when the two vineyards are in the same region.

For myself, blind tasting is more about tasting the wine for what it is, without the label bias. When I blind taste wines, I do it primarily to avoid label bias and not as part of a contest to see if I can accurately guess what the wine is. It’s fun to get it right, of course.

I’ll give you a concrete example. If I go to a restaurant and ask the sommelier’s advice on selecting a wine, I don’t ask the sommelier to pull out their blind tasting results to show that they correctly identified blind 15 wines out of 15. It’s an interesting skill, but it doesn’t really help ME. Instead, I want them to
guide me to why Wine A on their list is a better match with what I’m ordering than Wine B. That’s the kind of palate skill that is much more important to me.

Bruce

I agree. I think tasting really well is a tool, the question then is how well you use it. The best palate I ever met wasn’t terribly communicative.

BTW I would say someone who has a wine in, say, Gevrey but doesn’t name the vineyard is an excellent blind taster; anything more than that is either luck or great familiarity with a very distinctive wine, not general ability.

[Dale_Williams]

“Great palate” is all relative. Are we talking what one tastes or what one describes? I’ve known a few people who were remarkably consistent in their tastes, but were not especially verbally effusive.

I’m a part of several tasting groups, with some folks who can be really amazing in blind tastings. I , however, am not. I’ve been seriously into wine for over 20 years, but have come to accept I am not a physically gifted taster. Make no mistake, some people are better than others.

That said, based on probably 500+ serious tasting dinners and tasting tens of thousands of wines, I’m a “better” taster than I was 24 years ago. I figure on the physiological standpoint I’m probably in the 30th percentile, but with a lot of tasting and practice I’m in the 60th percentile vs the general population. If you count ability to describe wine, after 15 years of habitually doing TNs. I’m probably in the 90th percentile vs general population (but maybe 40th or 50th for winegeeks). And while my tasting efforts might not be as good as most in my serious tasting groups, it’s still the best indicator of what I should buy.

And even among the genetically gifted with a lot of experience there are variations on how they experience particular elements, I know great tasters who are comparatively insensitive to at least one compontent of many wines- whether brett, TCA, pyrazines, etc.

[alan_weinberg]

@Merrill Lindquist

I often say I think pretty much everyone can take piano lessons, and if they pay attention, and practice, they can achieve some level of competency. Only those with a “gift” can go beyond that. I feel it is that way with sports, music, probably a lot of things…and wine tasting is included.

+1. Hard work plus innate ability beat either alone.

[k_s_h_i_n]

FWIW, I don’t do too many blind tasting and certainly don’t try to practice. The first time when I participated in a blind tasting, literally blind, ten different grape varietals, I was able to correctly guess all. The next highest was seven then five. I have done pretty well in blind tastings beating a number of world champion sommeliers. Still, my palate is not that precise as no human palate really is.

I have tasted with a number of very well known wine critics/writers who are not that good tasters. Nevertheless people follow them passionately and think they taste well, the emperor has no clothes. It is not that difficult to write credible notes.

[Gerhard_P]

@Scott Fitzgerald

You missed my point. I’m questioning why it’s even worth having a “great” palate - does it really increase your ability to enjoy wine?

Yes, I think so (and remember I stated above that a “great palate” isn´t only about bulbs …)
At least regarding myself I enjoy much more what I understand, be it wine or music.
AND if I enjoy something without knowing what it is (and why it is so good) I at once want to know more about it … and that certainly raises my enjoyment.

Ok, I admit, there are other characters, too.

2nd: without certain tasting abilities you are not able to find any differences between a mean, a good and a great wine - so you´re stuck to the mean quality level (and I think that reduces your enjoyment)

[David_Glasser]

I think it’s a combination of innate talent, experience and memory. And I think that there’s more than one definition of “great palate” being discussed: 1) the ability to identify wines in a blind tasting, and 2) the ability to discern and communicate accurately to others in a meaningful way (not just points) what a wine is like (and maybe how it will develop, but that might be a separate skill).

I believe that it is possible to be expert at just one of these, or both. Being able to ID wines blind probably gives one a leg up on being able to describe the essence of a wine, but the two talents don’t necessarily go hand in hand. The ability to blind taste is more immediately impressive, particularly when experienced first hand, probably because it is so difficult for most of us to do. But the ability to discern what’s there and communicate it is more useful to me as a consumer. Bruce said it well:

@Bruce Leiser_owitz

I just don’t consider identifying wines blind to the sine qua non of a “great palate.” I don’t think you can identify wines blind without having excellent sensory and memory skills, but I’ve met lots of people who have what I consider to be an excellent palate who nevertheless have a difficult time distinguishing blind between wines from Vineyard A and Vineyard B, especially when the two vineyards are in the same region.

For myself, blind tasting is more about tasting the wine for what it is, without the label bias. When I blind taste wines, I do it primarily to avoid label bias and not as part of a contest to see if I can accurately guess what the wine is. It’s fun to get it right, of course.

I’ll give you a concrete example. If I go to a restaurant and ask the sommelier’s advice on selecting a wine, I don’t ask the sommelier to pull out their blind tasting results to show that they correctly identified blind 15 wines out of 15. It’s an interesting skill, but it doesn’t really help ME. Instead, I want them to guide me to why Wine A on their list is a better match with what I’m ordering than Wine B. That’s the kind of palate skill that is much more important to me.

Bruce

There are undoubtedly also people who can appreciate the complexities and differences between wines but who lack the ability to communicate well. I suppose that they have great palates as well, but like an autistic savant, their light is hidden under a barrel.

[Ian_Sutton]

There are many great comments about how improving the palate through experience and focus, and linked to that, the ability to express that palate in clear, informative and engaging text. Yes too, significant physiological differences exist as well, and a study a few years ago proved the concept of ‘supertasters’, but before we get too carried away with that, these were people who were just that much more sensitive to flavours, so having a supertaster advise a non-supertaster wouldn’t be ideal, as what one found a difficult/invasive taste, may be more subtle to the other person.

My somewhat flippant comment earlier, was that a few too many critics have made overblown claims of how great a taster they are, or how great a friend is. Their palate ‘greatness’ is but a reflection of their own hype or perhaps their ego. Too many people were in awe of these claims, and because the world of wine can be a confusingly imprecise thing, fell in behind these supposedly superior palates.

Time invested in understanding our own palates is the nearest we will get to finding a ‘great taster’. The greatest palate is our own and if we’re seriously interested in finding the perfect palate, then that’s where to look for it.

regards
Ian

[Henry_Kiichli]

@Ian Sutton

Time invested in understanding our own palates is the nearest we will get to finding a ‘great taster’. The greatest palate is our own and if we’re seriously interested in finding the perfect palate, then that’s where to look for it.

[resizeableimage=400,300]http://www.yourprops.com/movieprops/default/yp_4f1708c19dafb8.61171147/The-Wizard-of-Oz-Dorothy-s-Ruby-Slippers-5.jpg[/resizeableimage]


Oh, and I agree

[k_s_h_i_n]

@Ian Sutton

was that a few too many critics have made overblown claims of how great a taster they are, or how great a friend is. Their palate ‘greatness’ is but a reflection of their own hype or perhaps their ego. Too many people were in awe of these claims, and because the world of wine can be a confusingly imprecise thing, fell in behind these supposedly superior palates.

Bottle variation, storage, imprecise palate and etc.

[Steve_Kielty]

…

[andy_velebil]

@Kevin Shin

FWIW, I don’t do too many blind tasting and certainly don’t try to practice. The first time when I participated in a blind tasting, literally blind, ten different grape varietals, I was able to correctly guess all. The next highest was seven then five. I have done pretty well in blind tastings beating a number of world champion sommeliers. Still, my palate is not that precise as no human palate really is.

I have tasted with a number of very well known wine critics/writers who are not that good tasters. Nevertheless people follow them passionately and think they taste well, the emperor has no clothes. It is not that difficult to write credible notes.

Somewhat agree. Some people are good tasters and not good writers. Some people are good writers and not good tasters. Harder to find someone who can do both competently. And, as someone else mentioned, have issues with people who seemingly get like 30 different flavors in a wine. Really? Or my favorite is something like “I taste crushed rocks from the beach in Durben, South Africa.” Really? Like you really went to S. Africa to a beach, crushed some rocks, and then licked them.

As for the blind thing. Once while spending the day (lunch and dinner) at a producer in the Douro we sat for lunch and he proceeded to pour wines and then Port double blind. I was able to guess the correct vintage and wine of all the wines and Ports except for one (I missed the vintage by one year). The producer was stunned. Come dinner time I guessed two correct and was wrong all the others. Sometimes you just get lucky.

[k_s_h_i_n]

I have a good friend who loves good wines and generously shares them. He professed me a while back that he hasn’t been able to smell since in his late twenties. Nevertheless, he enjoys wine and is very passionate. I think that is what really matters, enjoying! I will never deny that when I drink DRC, Rousseau, Monfortino, Giacose, FGs, Harlan and etc, appreciating the labels are half of the fun. I am a self-professed label whore. A lot BS in wine tns.

[GregT]

This has little do do with having a great palate, but it is oh so true and a good reason most people are probably on this board. And if you behave this way, you can’t help but improve your palate. The quest for knowledge is in fact its own reward - improving your palate comes as a welcome by-product.

At least regarding myself I enjoy much more what I understand, be it wine or music.
AND if I enjoy something without knowing what it is (and why it is so good) I at once want to know more about it … and that certainly raises my enjoyment.

And this is unfortunately also too true:

My somewhat flippant comment earlier, was that a few too many critics have made overblown claims of how great a taster they are, or how great a friend is. Their palate ‘greatness’ is but a reflection of their own hype or perhaps their ego. Too many people were in awe of these claims, and because the world of wine can be a confusingly imprecise thing, fell in behind these supposedly superior palates.