Funny that I was introduced the the wines of Gravner and Radikon at Bobby’s restaurant Frasca. Gravner Ribolla Gialla and Miani Sauvignon were served at my college graduation dinner there a million years ago. I have a lot of respect for Bobby. I was a young college student when I started going into his restaurant to sit at the bar and taste through his btg selections. Bobby and Danny Meyer are the two hospitality professionals that have deeply impressed me.
I’m not anti-certification by any means, but to claim that you can only be a real sommelier by passing the CMS Advanced is asinine. There are other courses of study that are effective and there are people that have mentors. In my mind, the best overall sommelier/wine professional in Los Angeles is Taylor Parsons. I don’t believe he did anything with the CMS.
Master Sommeliers claiming that you have to go through the CMS to be a real sommelier will always sound self serving…because it is.
I’m curious to get your opinion on something - from your perspective, what are three things that set a ‘fantastic’ somm apart from all others? I am guessing, and I could be wrong, that their ability to taste blind is not one of them. It is an interesting skill to possess, but . . .
Brandon, so are you operating in your own facility? How near is your facility to your grapes? I think the effect of yeast inocula is overstated because of the dramatic effect of ‘aromatic yeasts’ on esters and how the wine shows early in its life. After a few years in bottle, that effect subsides dramatically. It’s also a sliding scale because a) some yeasts have a more dramatic effect than others b) some musts get ‘cleaned’ more heavily than others before inoculation c) the presence of other adds (i.e. winemakers who inoculate I assume are also more prone to use other parts of the toolbox, like enzymes, oak additives, and to pick riper). The biggest difference I see between native fermentations and inoculated fermentations three years on is in magnitude of aromatics and textures, and I think that’s mostly traceable to VA levels. There are subtle differences in composition and complexity, but they’re hardly enough to wage a holy war over. The biggest difference is skill and sourcing, but those are much more difficult concepts to explain and require a wider knowledge of the world of wine, something like one might get in studying for the advanced sommelier exam… similarly, don’t make assumptions about what you know in the winery after a couple of vintages. It’s a little more nuanced than that.
Remember that saccharomyces is very sensitive to sunlight and exists in extremely small quantities in the vineyard, but is airborne and persists on all kinds of surfaces in damp, dark, sugar rich environs. Most of the microbial terroir in a fermentation, spontateous or not, happens in the first few days of activity. Not as fun as fist pumping to your favorite natty jam, I know.
Ian
Thanks for piping in here. I understand the concept of wanting to believe that ‘native yeasts’ really do ‘make’ a wine unique, but after having made wine for a dozen years now (I know, not as long as you, but still awhile), it is clear that the role yeast play is so minimal in the overall picture of a finished wine. Yep, as you stated, it may seem ‘more important’ early in the life of a wine, especially during fermentation and just after pressing, but give it time and there’s no way one can distinguish a wine made with one yeast over another. Not even an MS (and please don’t take offense, Brandon - just jabbing you )
I’ll drop the geek level down several notches. Just give me a somm who can speak knowledgeably about the list without making me feel uncomfortable (either thru arrogance, snobbery, or trying to upsell) and I’m pretty happy. To me, the wine staff at Charlie Bird is the perfect mix of what I’m looking for.
Can you please clarify what “… pumped full of the same recipe of adds…” means, to you. You make an implication, of sorts, at least in my mind. Save for SO2 to keep wine healthy and clean, and sometimes yeast when one chooses to forgo native, what other “FULL RECIPE of adds” are you talking about?
I seriously doubt your “as it is to try six single vineyard Pinot Noirs that were inoculated with the same yeasts, pumped full of the same recipe of adds, and all taste the same.” take, I have yet to taste 6 Pinots from different producers made from same vineyard that show the same. Not only particular clones used and ratios, but pick date, yeast/native, how long a cold soak, kind of press used (yes, it matters IMO), number of punch downs, barrels, etc, etc, etc. They should show family resemblance being from same vineyard/clones, have no idea why someone would even suggest they should not, but in the end they are all, always and with no exceptions, different wines, nose and palate.
Cannot comprehend why my wine tasting and drinking experience differs so vastly from yours. I don’t know, let’s take a large enough vineyard where we can have a multitude of producers, better one with a limited clonal selection to level out variables, Pisoni is perfect here. Are you claiming that Pisoni Estate smells and tastes same as Siduri, Arcadian, ROAR, Miura, and others? Not sure what exactly you are saying in your post, nor what was the intent. They all taste the same to YOU? And you are a somm? 2BC is very consistent, batch to batch, but something tells me its not what you drink nor serve your customers.
This is another eye opener, not that Somm 1 wasn’t already for me. Is this part of the study and exam cert, that’s what you teach your guys, “full recipe of adds”? No wonder I have so much difficulty buying anything off of restaurant list lately. Oh, well.
I do agree with Larry above, though, “strange”, to put it mildly, when somm based/related wine makes it so easily onto other somms’ lists. Same somms who before always insisted that New World wine profiles somehow just do not fit their food program (made, of course, from USA grown ingredients in American kitchens, but then not called “New World Italian Restaurant”). But, voila, all of a sudden they taste great, great I tell you!, even though they are made from same vineyards and same grapes as wines with no somm connections do. Care to explain this dychotomy of such miraculous “seeing the light” as long as a somm is somehow is involved? So, is it really “what” or “WHO” that makes so much difference, overnight, or are you saying you guys do not use "the “full recipe”? Rhetorical, sorry.
There is a huge, humongous! really, chasm between book knowledge and actual hands on experience. Shame that most somms are guided by rather rudimentary book knowledge and a huge dose of “look at me” attitude that makes for a disservice to paying customer.
One other note here - and not to get too ‘geeky’ - but based on the experiences in my tasting room, it is obvious that plenty of wineries out there, including smaller, more boutique ones, make a series of wines that are not dissimilar enough to keep folks’ attention. One of the ‘compliments’ I constantly get is that my wines are all ‘so different’ . . . shouldn’t that be the case?
To me, this has more to do with oak treatment and picking decisions than anything else. There is no doubt that certain wineries use a decent amount of new oak - nowadays, wineries are constantly saying that they are ‘cutting back’, but many that I know continue to use at least 25-33%, and a good chunk of the other barrels used are once used, which still pack PLENTY of new oak fervor.
I have no idea how anyone, let alone a somm, can state that 6 different producers’ wines all taste the same. Mind boggling, really. I am also sure that Raj’ and Larry’s wines never do, because, you know, Raj and Larry!, no full recipe adds and all that assumed and imagined stuff that others do. Don’t care how often somms repeat this among themselves, doesn’t make it true, especially when 90% of them never stepped foot in the winery during crush. But, yeah, let’s read some books and repeat the mantra.
True story. 1975, Newtown HS, Queens, NY. Economics class.
Teacher: Today we will cover communism and USSR. Primary feature of communism and USSR is there is no private property.
I, raising hand: Sorry, but there is private property in Soviet Union.
Teacher: No, there is not.
I: Well, I just immigrated from there 2 years ago and I can assure you there is private property, not much, but there is, definintely.
Teacher, sternly: The book says there is no private property, end of discussion.
I: Got it!
Earlier this year I stopped for a hit of caffeine at a place out near the ocean here. Turned out the place was not just a coffee bar, but a nice dinner restaurant as well. I took a look at the wine list. It seemed as though the wine buyer was waiting for Jon Bonne to drop by, or at least some hipster wine geeks, in a neighborhood where houses start at 1.5 million.
One of things Bobby is trying to say is, Read the room. Don’t try to make your hipster friends smile, try to find wines people who come to the restaurant will like. There is no parking to be had so people will have to walk over and take a cab. In the case of this restaurant I wanted to say, Mix something people have heard of in with Larry Schaffer’s wine and the Massican. Bonne sold his car and moved back east.
Glad to be of help And want to be very clear that I have absolutely nothing against either Larry and Raj, Larry was a tough buyer, but very fair. Only met Raj as somm at Mina’s restaurants and never dealt with him on the business side. So, my issue is with what you correctly pointed out, let’s call it somm insider club
Yes, looking forward to Falltacular and catching up with some old friends!
Ability to read the guest. True with any sales position, but I’ve seen some amazing sommeliers that can quickly read a guest, ask pointed questions and zero in on an appropriate wine with in a minute or two.
Maintain an accurate list that reflects the mission of the restaurant. The reflective of the restaurant part is important to me because some restaurants are suited to a wide and varied list while others serve hyper regional cuisine where a narrowly focused list makes sense. Most people don’t care to talk to a sommelier. They want to efficiently choose a wine from the list that is in stock and will be delivered to the table quickly. This takes some logistics work on the somm side as well.
Have an open mind/ continue learning and exploring/ be kind.
What do you mean by “something people have heard of”? Are you saying we all need to have Rombauer chardonnay and Silver Oak cabernet? I think that is really off base. I’m no sommelier (although I’m happy to hear how hard it is) but the goal of a wine program is to have wines that taste good, show well with the food and reflect the aesthetic of the restaurant.
Thanks for your reply and your input. Very insightful indeed.
I asked the same question on my Facebook page and it was amazing to see the number of responses I got and how varied they were. Even Mr. Stuckey stopped in to take part. It is obvious that some folks just don’t ‘trust’ the somm at all and others are the exact opposite
When I read Mel’s post, I get the take home message to be that you need to have a little something for most potential customers coming in the door. Not everything for everyone, but something that is just ‘familiar’ to most folks.
Perhaps you don’t need to have a Rombauer or Silver Oak, but it would be nice to at least HAVE a chardonnay on the list rather than a slew of unknown Italian whites and skin contact Gruners. And a cab would not be a bad bet - even if it is a Massican, just something that folks can relate to.
Though many folks may not be familiar with much in wine, they are familiar with the major varieties . . .
That’s my thought too. I think way too often restaurants alienate entire categories (big cabs and oaky chards are the top 2) in an effort to try to get people to “drink something else”. Honestly, if you are a good salesperson, and the guest is a willing participant, you can sell them on something else. For the few narrow minded, it’s OK to concede to them. NO ONE is going to revoke your cool kid card simply because you offer a big Cab and an oaky Chard on your list. Handcuffing those people to what you want to drink says you don’t want their business.
I’m as “offended” as you are when I see Rombauer, aka “Danville Crack” in East Bay restaurants and bars, or Silver Oak, but what Mel and others are saying is, don’t have just one style of Chard, but a few, don’t have one style of Cab, but a few, and maybe a few bottles for a more “adventurous” hipster crowd mostly driven by social media and lack of historical perspective, never even mind their PAYING customers’ preferences. I used to work at Oakville Grocery Walnut Creek back in the day, and even though we tried to introduce customers to wines we thought they may and should try/like, opening a good number of bottles for free just to offer a taste, we also had “Silver Oak” customers that no matter what we tried and did, free tastes included, were simply set on a Silver Oak. One night a couple came in, told me they are looking for a bottle of Rombauer Chard. I pointed at a bottle of Dehlinger Chard and did my best to sell it, better price as well. Guess which one the husband bought in the end? “Dehlinger, Russian River? Can’t be good”. Next weekend, as I am sitting at a table at Venge, tasting wine with a few others, take a wild guess who rumbles in after spending a few hours in a long line at a Silver Oak Napa release day? (Just across the street). Yep, same guy wearing a Silver Oak sweater. Some, many?, people are just set in their ways, and if do not have what they want it may be the last time you see them in a shop or resturant.
Are you saying we should not have had Rombauer on the shelf, or Silver Oak? Actually, Silver Oak was only doled out to “good” customers in those days, from the stock room never making it to sales floor.
Although I am still not sure why people are not asking why some varietals became obscure in the first place after hundreds of years of market shake out.
Let’s just agree that you don’t need four skin fermented natural wines on a list any more than you need to pour both Rombauer and Frank Family by the glass. One will do, and if there’s more than one you love, rotate them.
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And want to be very clear that I have absolutely nothing against either Larry and Raj, Larry was a tough buyer, but very fair. Only met Raj as somm at Mina’s restaurants and never dealt with him on the business side. So, my issue is with what you correctly pointed out, let’s call it somm insider club