I don't get the wine auction market

[Alex_Valdes]

I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.

This has changed a lot in just the last few years. Take Acker’s latest internet weekly: 452 single bottle lots out of 1340; 800 lots estimated under $400. Zachys zAuctions are less frequent but have a similar trend.

This is the charm of the wine market: it’s highly fragmented into pockets of buyers and sellers making the process of price discovery and market clearing real work and, for those who like that sort of thing, an added adventure on the way to some tasty grape juice.

[MikeL238]

I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.

This has changed a lot in just the last few years. Take Acker’s latest internet weekly: 452 single bottle lots out of 1340; 800 lots estimated under $400. Zachys zAuctions are less frequent but have a similar trend.

This is the charm of the wine market: it’s highly fragmented into pockets of buyers and sellers making the process of price discovery and market clearing real work and, for those who like that sort of thing, an added adventure on the way to some tasty grape juice.

Not that I really look for those super high end bottles, but Acker’s reputation of having sold Rudi’s wines and continuing to put up questionable bottles put me off from buying from them. It’s really a personal choice I guess. Plus the buyer’s premium is 24% for Acker whereas Winebid is 17%.

[Mattstolz]

I always just figure that the cellartracker price is so low because people’s significant others have access to the CT as well and we’re all trying to convince our spouses we don’t spend THAT MUCH on wine.

[Alex_Valdes]

I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.

This has changed a lot in just the last few years. Take Acker’s latest internet weekly: 452 single bottle lots out of 1340; 800 lots estimated under $400. Zachys zAuctions are less frequent but have a similar trend.

This is the charm of the wine market: it’s highly fragmented into pockets of buyers and sellers making the process of price discovery and market clearing real work and, for those who like that sort of thing, an added adventure on the way to some tasty grape juice.

Not that I really look for those super high end bottles, but Acker’s reputation of having sold Rudi’s wines and continuing to put up questionable bottles put me off from buying from them. It’s really a personal choice I guess. Plus the buyer’s premium is 24% for Acker whereas Winebid is 17%.

I hear you on the Acker thing. I am not purchasing 10k a pop lots - at the lower levels I think it’s ok (other than the supporting people who you might believe are unscrupulous - that is something I wrestle with as well).

As for the BP I find it usually washes out. Take K and L: they have a 5% BP but the hammer price goes up to meet the all in price seen at the higher BP auctions. At the end of the day it’s the all-in price (with taxes, shipped) that I compare when making a buying decision

[Alex_Valdes]

I always just figure that the cellartracker price is so low because people’s significant others have access to the CT as well and we’re all trying to convince our spouses we don’t spend THAT MUCH on wine.

You are probably right!

[RMann]

Hi all, great thread and very astute comments. To summarize, and possibly add a little more perspective:

1. The data and pricing on WineBid, CT, WMJ, Wine-Searcher all not exact matches. As collectors, you all rightly know that every bottle of 82 Mouton listed online is not the same. Pricing is highly dependent on provenance, item quality (fill, label condition), selling context (sold as a single bottle, case lot, mixed lot), timing (last week, last year, last decade), currency, physical location, auction/retailer reputation, etc. Also as noted, many of these sources are self-reported, and various folks have various reasons for reporting in numbers in different ways (see #3 below).

2. Wine collectors, like all consumers, have various reasons for shopping on different sites, with price being only one factor. Just like eBay Motors vs BringATrailer, Chronext vs Crown&Caliber, Walmart vs Amazon, or even Amazon Direct vs Amazon Marketplace/resellers- the user experience, item descriptions, photos, convenience, ease of use, customer service and many other factors cause people to shop, and sometimes even pay a little or a lot more, at one place vs another.

3. Don’t forget that each of the data sources mentioned are all businesses with their own business models, and they are all using the data in different ways to promote those models. Some use the data to price and sell products (auction houses), some use it to sell advertising (Wine Searcher), some use it to sell subscriptions (WMJ and CellarTracker). And, for example, WMJ is owned by a retailer/auction house, but don’t publish their own stats. We’re in the information economy, the information is valuable and everyone is monetizing it differently. Just as @MBerto kicked off this thread talking about Kelly Blue Book- that’s a data business that makes money off of dealers and manufacturers and others- and quotes different prices if you are a seller than a buyer.

WineBid, like other auction houses, is a “market maker”- we rely on the data and provide the best product information and customer service we can, to connect sellers and global buyers at prices they are willing to transact, based on our 20 years of data and our very fresh and real-time weekly bidding activity. We’re all incentivized to price things at what they will sell at, and let you, the market, decide to bid them up or let someone else buy them.

Hope that’s helpful as a broad summary, fair and balanced about the wine data industry overall. I don’t want to be “too commercial” about WineBid. For those of you I haven’t interacted with yet, I’m always happy to take private questions about WineBid by DM or email.

Happy tasting and sharing everyone, have a safe 4th of July weekend and hope to see you at the auction!

[Alex_Valdes]

Hi all, great thread and very astute comments. To summarize, and possibly add a little more perspective:

1. The data and pricing on WineBid, CT, WMJ, Wine-Searcher all not exact matches. As collectors, you all rightly know that every bottle of 82 Mouton listed online is not the same. Pricing is highly dependent on provenance, item quality (fill, label condition), selling context (sold as a single bottle, case lot, mixed lot), timing (last week, last year, last decade), currency, physical location, auction/retailer reputation, etc. Also as noted, many of these sources are self-reported, and various folks have various reasons for reporting in numbers in different ways (see #3 below).

2. Wine collectors, like all consumers, have various reasons for shopping on different sites, with price being only one factor. Just like eBay Motors vs BringATrailer, Chronext vs Crown&Caliber, Walmart vs Amazon, or even Amazon Direct vs Amazon Marketplace/resellers- the user experience, item descriptions, photos, convenience, ease of use, customer service and many other factors cause people to shop, and sometimes even pay a little or a lot more, at one place vs another.

3. Don’t forget that each of the data sources mentioned are all businesses with their own business models, and they are all using the data in different ways to promote those models. Some use the data to price and sell products (auction houses), some use it to sell advertising (Wine Searcher), some use it to sell subscriptions (WMJ and CellarTracker). And, for example, WMJ is owned by a retailer/auction house, but don’t publish their own stats. We’re in the information economy, the information is valuable and everyone is monetizing it differently. Just as @MBerto kicked off this thread talking about Kelly Blue Book- that’s a data business that makes money off of dealers and manufacturers and others- and quotes different prices if you are a seller than a buyer.

WineBid, like other auction houses, is a “market maker”- we rely on the data and provide the best product information and customer service we can, to connect sellers and global buyers at prices they are willing to transact, based on our 20 years of data and our very fresh and real-time weekly bidding activity. We’re all incentivized to price things at what they will sell at, and let you, the market, decide to bid them up or let someone else buy them.

Hope that’s helpful as a broad summary, fair and balanced about the wine data industry overall. I don’t want to be “too commercial” about WineBid. For those of you I haven’t interacted with yet, I’m always happy to take private questions about WineBid by DM or email.

Happy tasting and sharing everyone, have a safe 4th of July weekend and hope to see you at the auction!

I am new to this board and didn’t know you were on here Russ. I’m sure others have said this, but for me it’s great to have you replying on a thread like this - makes me feel like you, as CEO of a marketplace for wine drinkers / collectors, are really engaged. Really cool.

[Br1an_Th0rne]

And if it wasn’t clear, Winebid”s leadership and transparent communication is a big plus as well! Russ’s participation here in wineberserkers is fairly unique, and most appreciated.

[RMann]

I always just figure that the cellartracker price is so low because people’s significant others have access to the CT as well and we’re all trying to convince our spouses we don’t spend THAT MUCH on wine.

You are probably right!

This is the REAL answer!

[Rich_Brown]

And if it wasn’t clear, Winebid”s leadership and transparent communication is a big plus as well! Russ’s participation here in wineberserkers is fairly unique, and most appreciated.

I 100% agree with this. Awesome having Russ on here participating!

[RMann]

And if it wasn’t clear, Winebid”s leadership and transparent communication is a big plus as well! Russ’s participation here in wineberserkers is fairly unique, and most appreciated.

I 100% agree with this. Awesome having Russ on here participating!

Thanks guys!