It’s the average THE USERS entered into CT - which may not include taxes or shipping, or may have poor FX translations, or may just be wrong. I get that I shouldn’t key into it, and don’t really, but it still grinds my gears.
Yes I completely agree. The pro subscription to WS and WMJ are vital to me when assessing prices. I wish the API access wasn’t better and I wish there was a bit more lot info (lot number, other bottles in auction) because the price variance from auction to auction is just as much about how people are participating as much as the trend value in the wine.
One thing to consider if you are looking at WMJ values on midlevel Bordeaux (as OP was discussing) is that in almost all cases they are multi-bottle lots, often cases. So WMJ may say a wine you paid $100 for is being sold for $85, but you’d have to spend a grand to get that pricing (I realize there is actual a premium for 12 bottle OWC lots on top wines, but not really for most 3rd growths from good not great vintages).
There are wines I love that I wouldn’t mind getting a case of. Taking a concrete example, I paid $121 for a bottle of 2015 Jean Michel Guillon Gevrey Chambertin Petite Chapelle. Its current USA best price on wine-searcher.com is $111 assuming I buy a whole case ($89-90/bottle in the UK again by the case). Auction value according to WMJ via Cellartracker is $79.64, much cheaper than even the cheapest global price. Where can I find the auctions where that sold so I know which auction houses to frequent more often?
The more I look into this the more problems I find. This is a good example of how the data isn’t perfect. There are no sales in WMJ for the 2015. There are only recorded sales for the 02, 05, 10 and 11 vintages with the latest sale in June of the 10s (Brentwood Wine Company) at 89/bottle.
I can’t make out how they are choosing to show a price for the 15 vintage nor can I figure out how they decide when to show an auction price vs not (for example the 14s don’t have a listed auction price).
All in - don’t rely on the Auction Price on CT especially for bottles with low liquidity.
I heard back from WS - giving you the ability to see auction pricing inclusive of the BP is in their development pipeline. No clue how long it will take. Looking forward to this feature
Thank you - that answers a lot. I’d often seen that producer go for significantly less at auction according to Cellartracker, yet when I look around, it’s nowhere to be found.
That is a weird example. Worth asking on CT forum what is going on. That being said it is fairly easy to pick up many recent release mid-level Bordeaux and burgundy at auction at huge discounts to retail. (Well, huge for burgundy, small but significant for bdx). HDH must have sold 500 cases of 2016 Bordeaux at auction in the last year. Burgundy (and Rhone) you have to look around more.
I found a bunch of these - I will send a message asking for more insight into the pricing algo
Agree you have a good shot of getting the best prices at auction but 1) it doesn’t mean everyone transacts at the best price and 2) the synthesized auction price quoted on CT is probably going to be too lagged to be a reliable midpoint of the auction market.
If you really want to know what you should pay, I suggest
- getting an account at WMJ and looking at the detailed transaction breakdown and look at the trend and remove odd outliers
- get a pro WS acct and look at the retail offers to get a ceiling
- email any of the major houses - they have been really helpful in giving advice. They have a good sense of the market
There are other analytics you can do to get a better sense of where prices are likely going due to various pressures evidenced in the data - but that is for another post ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
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I was browsing HDH. What do OC and OWC stand for?
OC = Original Carton (sometimes OCB for cardboard box)
OWC = Original Wood Case
At the back of the catalogue you will find a page like this explaining the shorthand used throughout (this is from a current Acker catalogue).
Winebid’s auction prices for classified growth Bordeaux isn’t usually competitive with major auction houses. I keep seeing 2000 Pontet Canet selling offered for $135 plus premium and tax, which takes it to $170 per bottle. Lunacy! I bought a case three months ago via Zachys, $100 inclusive of premium tax. HDH auction several cases last week for $119 all in. It’s available on WS-pro for $130 to $150 in many places. Same deal for 2000 Leoville Poyferre, $160 all in at auction, $200 all in at winebid.
I bought a lot of Bordeaux from winebid during the 2000-2012 timeframe, but for me the prices just don’t make sense any longer. For other regions, the prices tend to be more competitive, and there are good deals to be found. I’ve subsrcribed to Wine Market Jorunal for the last several years, and it is a wonderful tool, and have “saved” more than enough money to justify the subscription. Perhaps ignorance was bliss back in the “old days” before CT and WMJ, or my purchasing practices have changed (OWC vs single bottles) but for me, it’s rare that winebid makes sense these days for purchasing Bordeaux wines.
This is helpful Brian. I never look at Wine Bid so didn’t realize the price disconnect was so large.
Why do you think people use Wine Bid over the other options?
I agree. For whatever reason, it seems to me that they price their Bordeaux a lot higher than wines from other regions. All in prices for some of higher end Bordeaux are a lot more than what the retail stores are selling for. Maybe Bordeaux attract more international buyers who usually wouldn’t be able to purchase from US retailers?
Thanks Brian, that’s helpful. On the point above, I see it’s still offered. I think what is going on in these cases is the seller keeps offering it at that price - and it’s not selling. If it doesn’t sell in a given week, seller can just roll to the next week.
Personally I used WB for a few reasons - you can get decent prices (but not great) on stuff that might not be available elsewhere at all - oddball back vintages of Oregon Pinot, Rioja, lesser Bdx in the ~$50 range. In addition, compared to the other auction sites, the user experience is way better. Website is really easy to navigate, search, save searches, etc. Customer service is generally great as well.
This is what I would have guessed: lower total lot prices due to many single bottle lots and app/site user experience.
Most auction sites have terrible UIs. The best ones, for me, are HDH (by a wide margin) and Acker. Quickly looking at Wine Bid I find it too “store like” but they do offer the best lot intelligence out there (comprehensive reviews, price charts, detailed photos, etc).
I personally like having the ability to download a catalogue in XL or quickly zooming through lots by producer (using the HDH favorite producer feature), using the good filter features (years, size, region, estimate), and doing group bidding (HDH bid groups). Of course, the real appeal is catalogue depth which helps get best execution.
I was happy purchasing Bordeaux at auction via winebid, particularly back vintages, for many years…from 2000 to around 2012. I took a bit of a break in purchasing Bordeaux between 2012 and 2017 (disgust with Bordelais pricing choices with the 2010 vintage pushed me over the edge, and my cellar was full) and when I became and active buyer again in 2017, I was discouraged with the high prices for 1982 - 2000 Bordeaux on winebid. Their buyer premiums had went up, sales tax was then added, and I started looking for other avenues. WMJ really opened my eyes to what the true “going rate” was for individual wines. I was surprised at how “easy” it was to participate in auctions via traditional houses, e.g. HDH, Zachys, Acker et al, and many of them have weekly internet auctions much like winebid, in addition to their major auctions that are typically held every other month or so. The prices are usually lower for Bordeaux, the selection is greater, and the ability to participate virtually is quite easy and dangerously enjoyable!
I think many folks use winebid today to purchase Bordeaux because it is convenient, the customer service is top notch, you can purchase single bottles, the selection is good, and it is safe. I continued to use winebid for Bordeaux purchases because I thought that the traditional auction houses were too hard, but the truth is I just didn’t know any better. This explanation probably comes across harsher than intended…looking at CT is see I’ve purchased almost 35% of all Bordeaux I’ve ever owned since 2000 at winebid, but less than 10% since 2018, and none since early 2019.
I still think winebid is very competitive for other regions, and I continue to happily use their services for such; just won several Napa Bordeaux blends last week!
Looking at the “history” tab, I see winebid has sold 17 bottles of 2000 Pontet Canet in June at $135++, for an all in price of $170 per bottle!
I agree with you completely though, it is great for picking up wines, in smaller quantities especially, for other regions. And if I’d never tasted a mature vintage of pontet canet before, and wanted to purchase a single bottle, I’d be hesitant to purchase a full case at a traditional auction house. It does look like a great venue to use if you’re considering to sell / auction off some classic Bordeaux in single bottles or small lots!
For many reasons:
- diversity of lots across regions and price spectrum - Many if not most of the Winebid lots aren’t traded at the bigger houses. But there are lots of board darling wines, often mailing list only, that I’m waitlisted for but get to try, sometimes at a discount (Cayuse, Saxum, Rhys for example).
- ability to purchase singles keeps prices down. I’ve been able to acquire individual bottles of Ramonet with age, Gonon, Vatan, Dujac, Keller, etc. with a relatively low cost of entry.
- and the ability to ship where some major houses can’t (HDH won’t ship to me in Tx, for example).
And although Brian’s 2000 Bordeaux examples are certainly fair, I can likewise point to numerous Winebid lots I’ve won at way below auction or CT avg at the same time (1989 VCC for $150 all in last year, 2017 Pierre Morey Meursault Tessons for $62)
I agree-the fact that you can buy a single bottle, which is somewhat rare for traditional auction houses, is one of the main reasons I use winebid.