how vine age affects wine?

WINE TALK
1

There is a question I’ve been wondering about for some time.

  • How does vine age affect the resulting wine?
    Let me elaborate. New World producers (including California) don’t seem to place much stock in old vines (correct me if I’m wrong). While Old World takes the opposite view - Rhone being a good case in point where the older the vines, the greater the hype/price/respect/demand for the wine.
    The older the vine, the less grapes it produces and the smaller the actual grapes. They have higher skin-to-pulp ratio, resulting in higher tannins and higher flavour concentration. But the same can potentially be achieved with any vine through pruning, soil selection and water stress. You can prune it to the desired yield and, if the vine is water stressed, the skin-to-pulp ratio will be similar to that of older vines…
    And then there is, of course, the famous example of the Judgement of Paris where Californian wines won the night. While this is only a guess (and not even a well educated one, admittedly), I would presume that the French vines would’ve been older than American at the time simply due to the length of viticultural history of the place…
    Is there anything that actually distinguishes older/ancient vines from newer ones in terms of wine produced?
    Both technically (by the numbers) and stylistically (by taste)?
    What do you think?
2

Uhhhhh…calling MikeDildine. Now the hitsfan
Tom

3

New world or old, wherever old vines exist, much importance is placed on them.

In California, a number of factors have limited the number of old vineyards. Phylloxera, followed by Prohibition, followed by periodic replanting to chase hot markets (the latter of which you’d never see in an AOC region) have set up a situation where a lot of wine is made from young vines.

It may be dependent on what grape we’re talking about, but I’ve talked to a respected Syrah producer who felt that as long as yields were controlled, then vine age didn’t matter and young Syrah vines could make excellent wine. Of course this producer makes Syrah from young vines, but his wines are highly respected so I don’t see any reason to doubt him. One example of an old-world Syrah made from young vines, which is highly hyped/priced/respected/demanded, is Guigal’s La Turque.

Zinfandel OTOH seems to come into its own with some vine age, however it’s difficult to tell if this is the terroir of the newer plantings, or lack of field blending, etc. An example of a young vine Zin that’s highly regarded would be Outpost’s Howell Mountain Zin.

4

Just visited Colene Clemens in Willamette – all the Pinot vines under 5 years old. I spent the last 10 minutes as we drove to CC pontificating about the advantages of old vines. I was shocked at how rich and interesting the wines were. Still they were not nearly as good as the Brick House wines that followed that were made from 20-30 year old vines a half mile away.

Of course Colene Clemens claimed that they harvested 0.4 tons per acre in 2010 so maybe that had something to do with the quality.

5

I like Mt Eden Vineyards Estate PN & Cab a lot. Think, they’re old vine.

6

Mikhail – A fascinating topic, and one that has been discussed here before. For instance:

Old vine California pinot
Old zins

Since you’re interested in the topic, there are lots of exceptions on both sides of the Atlantic to the general maxim that old vines are better and more prevalent in Europe:

–There are the very, very old zin vineyards cited above, often replanted post-phylloxera on rootstocks that proved resistant to later phylloxera infestations but which went out of fashion. It’s very rare in Europe to find 100-year-old vines. I know there are some in the 80+ range in Priorat and the Southern Rhone, but zin may hold the record.

–The first post-replanting vintage from one of the DRC vineyards after WWII is considered a great wine even though the vines were only five years old as I recall. (I can’t remember which vineyard, Romanee Conti or La Tache, I believe.)

–In Piemonte, producers don’t lay much emphasis on old vines. I asked one winemaker about this and he said that, historically, people didn’t take good care of the vines, so they didn’t really know how old nebbiolo vines could get with proper care.

–In California, after the Judgment of Paris, there was a nasty return of phylloxera that forced the replanting of most of Napa and Sonoma in the 90s and 2000s, and many other vineyards. Thus the vines that produced those wines in the 1970s tasting may well have been older than the those used for today’s wines.

Finally, in another twist, some (Roy Piper here, very vocally) contend that the rootstocks used in California in the last several decades require harvesting at higher brix levels in order to get flavor ripeness. Roy is the only person here who has espoused that view that I can recall, so I’m not how widespread that view is. But it does point up that rootstock may be as important to the quality and character as the age of the vines.

7

As already pointed out several CA winemakers prize old vine vineyards. Unfortunately these are not always the most profitable vineyards so there has been a tendency for them to be bought up and replanted with higher profit grapes. And as mentioned this is something that won’t happen in France, although my feeling is that in Burgundy there has certainly been a movement in places to replant with trendier Dijon clones.
Australia is very much a New World country and as far as I can tell there are lots and lots of old vine vineyards there and plenty of winemakers and consumers that revere them.
Tonight I’ll be drinking either a CA white wine from a 50 year old vineyard or a CA red from a 100 year old vineyard.

8

According to the assistant winemaker at Clos Pissarra, the “La Vinyeta” vineyard in Priorat has vines that are 111 years old. FWIW, there is information I’ve found on elsewhere on the web that indicate the vines are only 65 - 90 years old, so who knows who’s right, or if they’re both right.

Clos Pissarra’s Facebook page also has the following claim re: the La Vinyeta vineyard:

La Vinyeta: what a typical grand vineyard in Priorat looks like in a wine encyclopedia. a) It is so steep you can’t see the bottom if you’re standing at the top b) > Vines of Garnacha and Carignan more than 125 years old with miserly yields > c) Ensuing wines produced with uncommon strength and opulence yet ideally balanced.

Clos Pissarra’s FB page has this to say about the “El Riu” vineyard in Priorat:

El Riu: derived from the Catalan word for “river,” is situated aptly, above the Montsant River that runs through the heart of the region. It is made up of > 100 year old Carignan vines > in an extremely rare soil combination of gravel and slate.

9

I believe the oldest living vines you’ll find in CA will be either in Contra Costa or Amador county, the former being Phylloxera resistant due to sandy soils, and the latter due to geographical barriers to the root louse.

http://historicvineyardsociety.org/eschen-rinaldi-vineyard/
http://historicvineyardsociety.org/evangehlo-vineyard/

10

Oooh! I’d love to taste some Mourvedre from 123yr.-old vines! flirtysmile

11

Let me elaborate. New World producers (including California) don’t seem to place much stock in old vines (correct me if I’m wrong). While Old World takes the opposite view

In Burgundy, 30 or 40 year old vines are considered vielle vignes. In California or Australia, such vines wouldn’t be considered middled age yet. While old vines may be prized in France, there are actually very few around.
I’ve heard that vigor is the most important factor. Old vines have low vigor, but very young vines (3-5 years old) also have low vigor. Some very famous wines have been made by very young vines. Quinta Noval Nacional 1931 is one example.

12

The '73 Staggs Leap Wine Cellars Staggs Leap Vineyard (that won the Judgement of Paris) is another.

13

Thanks everyone for the insights!
While the question of whether old vines are prized or not is certainly interesting (and seems to be slightly controversial), another question begs to be asked. Regardless whether old vines make better wine or not (after all, that’s a matter of personal preference) - will you be able to tell in a blind tasting whether the wine is from an old vineyard or not? [cheers.gif]

14

The 1963 MILDARA Peppermint Patty Cabernet Sauvignon from Coonawarra in Aussie is considered a legendary wine and from very young vines IIRC.

15

Or get a Bedrock Heirloom wine from vines planted in 1888 (which btw is post phylloxera.)

16

Or you could try the Hewitson Old Garden Mouvedre from 160yr. old Mouvedre vines.

17

Langmeil also makes a Shiraz from vines planted in 1843. I’m not sure i’ve seen an Aussie wine call out vines older than that…

18

Mikhail,
There are probably some who claim they can unerringly taste “old vines” in such a wine. I sometimes pick up a sort of “dusty” character
when I’m tasting some old-vine Zin (and will often use that descriptor in my TN), but sometimes not as well. But I’ve not been able to
identify a common descriptor in old-vine wines across the board. But then I have the sensitive palate of a slobbery StBernard as well.
I doubt that even MikeOfficer or Morgan Twain-Peterson, two who are very passionate about old-vine vnyds, would be able
to unerringly identify an old-vine wine served blind. But maybe they can.
Tom

19

No. There are just too many other variables for anyone to be able to say with confidence completely blind that a particular wine is from “old vines”, whatever that even means. (30 years? 50 years? 100?)

Tom’s answer was delightfully equivocal, but the real answer is just no.

20

No.

EDIT: “what Adam said.”