Nobody is naming wineries because they really don’t know. They all like to think they know. They hear things, and like to gossip. Most of all they like to think that their wines are real and those other wines that get better reviews than their wines have to be messed with in an immoral way, otherwise they wouldn’t get better press.
But they don’t know. I don’t know. All I know is that I haven’t ever met anyone that I know of that adds non-grape flavoring agents.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Question for John Z. and Nate Simon:
These wineries that you know of firsthand, are they the kinds of wines that Wine Berserkers drink and talk about, or are they grocery store type wines, or cheap wines?
I often hear the typical rants about oak powder, Mega Purple, spiking the pinot with syrah, leaving a lot of RS, and all that business, but to whatever extent those practices are used, I don’t really know how much of it is in the categories of wines that we care about versus just bulk stuff.
I don’t think your average wine drinker knows, would care, or should care whether any practices like this are in the $5 wine they buy at Trader Joe’s or Albertson’s. But when people are implying that this is what is going on at Pavie or Siduri or Kosta Browne or SQN or something, I’d want to see some proof or at least some credible direct knowledge testimony about it before I would believe it.
Kyle,
It is not up to other winemakers to ‘name names’ - it really is up to wineries to be more forthright in what they do and disclose these things. Period.
Our industry is one that often hides behind the veil of ‘aura’ and ‘marketing hype’ and ‘craftsmanship’ when other stuff happens - but no one HAS to tell you anything.
It is one of the things that upsets me most about our industry - at all levels.
And I always wonder when I read these threads about those consumers who say they care about the means that are taken to make the wine at hand when it is known that what is ‘implied or stated’ oftentimes is NOT what happens. If you like the finished product, and it is created by a ‘non-industrial’ winery, does the mean justify the end result? Do you care if concentrators are used to give a wine a truly ‘concentrated’ mouthfeel? Do you care if a wine has had velcorin applied to it to kill off brett and other ‘rogue’ yeast cells? Do you care if a winery actually filters their wines when they say they don’t? Or if a ‘natural’ winery actually does use ‘cultured yeasts’ from time to time if the ‘natural’ way does not complete the task?
A few things to think about . . .
Cheers!
Larry,
Perhaps you are right…but instead what we have here is winemakers saying, “I know it is done, but I can’t tell you by whom.” And, in this case in particular, they are saying they know that other people are doing illegal things. – That seems somewhat McCarthy-like to me.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Are you talking about “Formula Wines?” I believe there is a separate COLA category and it has to say formula wine or something to that extent on the label - but this is usually for explicitly flavored wines and not surreptitiously flavored grape wine.
“The proprietor must submit a separate TTB F 5120.29 for each formula
covering the production of special natural wine, agricultural wine, effervescent
wine in which more than 10 percent of the volume is finishing dosage,
essences and extracts produced on bonded wine premises, and other than
standard wine, except for distilling material and vinegar stock. The
proprietor must forward the completed TTB F 5120.29, in triplicate
(quintuplicate for applicable wine products produced in Puerto Rico), to the
Advertising, Labeling, and Formulation Division, Alcohol and Tobacco Tax
and Trade Bureau, 1310 G St NW, 4th Floor, Washington, D.C. 20220.
Production may commence upon the receipt by the proprietor of an
approved formula on TTB F 5120.29.”
I like your response to me a few posts up. That’s the feel I got, honestly.
Larry, if you (or others) dislike the practice of hiding what some consider to be important information, why not out the people who are poisoning your wine barrels? Seems like a great way to get that stuff out in the open and possibly change it, assuming it is actually happening.
Kyle et al,
As I said above, I truly don’t think it’s my place to ‘out’ others - because in most cases it will become a ‘who do you want to believe’ situation. Not fun for anyone involved. And Adam, you and I both know that you are ‘privy’ to goings on at wineries that others do not want you to share, just as I am 
I have worked for wineries that have employed things like ‘liquid oak extract’ to add more ‘oak flavor’ to their wines or concentrate to ‘pop’ the fruit in one of their wines . . .
I have seen large bags of C and H sugar being purchased by wineries in cooler vintages; I have seen wineries use velcorin not only at bottling but at racking, but not let the customer know.
At the end of the day, this goes back to a question I posed above - if you like a wine, do you care how it is made or not? Some do and some don’t.
Cheers!
Larry
Hey there, just landed in NYC, so forgive the silence.
I understand your points and largely agree, as these wineries are all doing things that are legal.
I guess where I am bothered is when illegal activities are brought up — such as adding cherry juice to Pinot. In my opinion, unless you were there and saw it being done, I don’t care for the “it’s going on out there” vague resposnses.
I think it taints the winemaking process without any specifics
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Adam,
Gotcha - and as I said, no witch hunts here . . . and I would never suggest anyone is adding ‘fruit juice’ to wines, for instance - other than the very small producer I know who added some cranberry juice to his rose to make it ‘pop’ a bit . . .
Cheers!
Adam,
Your directing your comments toward me … Just be direct …
I have a list of the users of additives … What good would it do to out them ? A question was asked and answered… Like did you ever speed or know of someone who does … You want to out them too …now when does it stop … Men are greedy pigs… Face the facts … You are very innocent and that’s good for you and your business…
How about other vintages being added into current vintages … How about winemakers who follow the wine scores goes out to buy the wines that scored high points and then bottle their own wine with their label and submits to a wine critic for scoring or competition …that is called poaching and it goes on … So in theory you can follow a score and be fooled, because the score was not that wineries wine … Also I know winemakers who leave RS in wines and saw the tannins are ripe… And it goes on and on like working in a kitchen you might never eat in that restaurant again because of what you saw …
Cheers !!!
PS
Oh my I hope your not disenchanted with the romance of wine… Like Larry says if you like the wine does it matter if three dead chickens were swing over while hopping on one foot? No , only to the chickens… Lol…
John,
No, I wasn’t specifically directing my comments at you. I think people on the boards often imply things but really don’t have any facts to back them up. Various comments about adding Syrah to Pinot come to mind.
In this thread, you are actually the only one who might be in a position of some real knowledge (as you apparently sell fruit flavorings made from fruits other than grapes— is that correct? I wasn’t aware of that). – I believe per the TTB, adding those flavorings is illegal without declaring it as some sort of "Flavor Added Wine) (as opposed to what you mention about blending in other vintages — which is legal if the addition is less than 5%. You mention poaching - I don’t know anybody that does that).
In any case, I am not even saying that you should out the wineries that add fruit flavors. But I’d be interested in some other details. How many wineries buy fruit flavorings from you (out of how many wineries in the area)? Do they do so every year? Is it mainly high end wineries doing so or lower end? Do any of them make legally flavor-added wines and bottle them as such?).Those are the questions I’d like answered…no outing necessary.
Perhaps you are correct, that I am “innocent” - naïve. I just prefer to think that others are not breaking the law, if I don’t have real knowledge to believe otherwise.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Adam,
of all the peeps I encounter on BB’s your one of the coolest and nicest and I love following you on FB … someday we will make a toast and chill…
When I became involved in fruit-wines it seemed like my innocence was trashed… I was flabbergasted when I was shown this manipulation and its been going on for thousands of years it seems …
without tripping over specific wineries … I have sent or another fruit supplier has sent to wineries that make no fruit wines/… these micro fruit enhancements add flavor, structure and even RS balance to say they are wrong (except as per the law, its narrow and illegal) after tasting the wine ? not valid at all when its better … ? again illegal … but the wine is better for being spoofolated …
the purchases are not FLX specific they are nation wide … its not done every year … high end wines or wineries …oh boy … lets say they have asked for small samples at times … one in particular knew a wine critic loved blueberries and guess what … it worked, embarrassingly so well…
yes to legally flavored wines many do this in our region… this is the TTB designate for labeling that I chose for our fruit wines… this way I can spoofolate at will, legally for fruit wines… I disclose this and its not done often, but some years ya just need to play to get it right …
ok … back to work… 1000 case bottling tomorrow…
Cheers !!!
You certanly have a point Vincent!
I.m.h.o. it is most of the times a matter of yeast.
In Germany they managed to make 10 totaly different wines from the very same grapes as a experiment by using artificial yeast.
You want lemon, BlackBerry, blue berry, banana, kiwi,pineapple, etc. etc. in your end product, no problem 
I didn’t say that was the “best” that they can do, or that it’s all they can do. My point was that they can be used to put as much or as little flavor into the wine as is wanted, just like barrels of various ages. You said you don’t like really oaky wines, which is why I gave the example, then you came back with an argument that newer is better, so I can’t really follow that. We’re not talking about artificial anything. We’re talking about the exact same compounds being leached from the exact same place (oak) in either case. I have no idea how you get to the whole artificial thing from that. Your line of what’s okay and what isn’t, in this case, seems completely arbitrary as it isn’t based on any actual difference in the wine: no less terroir, no less or more of anything than the treatment you are okay with. I was trying to understand your reasoning, but I still don’t see any logic behind it.
It sounds like you’re only talking about the flavor of oak, though. There are other changes that I believe are due to micro-oxygenation. See the Oxford Companion, ‘wood flavor’ vs. ‘wood influence.’
That doesn’t seem much different than adding acid after fermentation, which can be noticeable and annoying.
Blueberry is something else. There are far too many wines that taste like blueberry even without help.
P Hickner
Adding cranberry juice isn’t much different than adding acid? Come on.
Except that one is illegal. And I am reluctant to accuse someone of doing something illegal unless I really saw it happen. Perhaps that’s just me…definitely not an internet friendly POV.
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
The post was in jest, cranberry being a positive descriptor among this crowd, and blueberry shading strongly to the over-ripe.
Yes, compared to crystallized tartaric acid, one is illegal, but do you think you could tell the difference? There isn’t much to unsweetened cranberry juice other than puckering acidity.
Another point of amusement to me is that the strictest of the non-interventionists usually tolerate brett, which to me is a noxious contaminant.
I doubt that any of us has to worry about other fruit juices in our fermented grape juice, and as I often say, “If you can’t tell the difference, to you there is no difference.”
P Hickner
That’s true.
Many people want to imagine they have some wink wink insider knowledge, but that’s usually not from watching with their own eyes.
I don’t know about any domestic wine makers, although I wouldn’t be surprised either way. But I did have the experience with a couple winemakers from Europe who didn’t have sufficient wine so they took some white and added some flavorings and shipped a container of wine that was completely different from what was tasted and ordered. That they thought they’d get away with it was breathtakingly stupid.
It wasn’t wine that anyone on this board would be buying anyway and they ended up getting their comeuppance, so in a way it worked out in the end, but it was a surprisingly stupid move. Have other wineries done the same thing but in more subtle ways?
No idea. I’ve never seen it first hand and don’t think it’s fair to smear someone with innuendo and vague hints.
To answer Kyle’s question about why not out those wineries - that’s why. It’s easy to claim someone has done something.
Remember what LBJ said when he suggested that a certain party be questioned about his homosexual affairs. The other guy was shocked and asked if it was really true.
“Hell no!”, LBJ said, “but let’s have fun watching the son of a bitch deny it!”
Wine shouldn’t descend to the level of politics!