I DO Andrew - you driving down Monday? Drop me a line - will be there at some point- probably later i the afternoon - would LOVE to hook up again!!!
Why is this “worse” than putting the wine in a new barrel, or are you also against that?
And Frank, how can you be sure that the wines you purchase did NOT have wood chips, etc in them? I’ve known wineries to say ‘aged in French Oak’ when they really meant - aged in stainless steel with french oak CHIPS’ . . .
There was a scandal a few years back, with some South African producers using flavourings to attempt to imitate NZ Sauvignon Blanc. Illegal and they were caught, with a detrimental impact on the whole of the SA wine industry.
Barring the legal additives discussed earlier, anyone doing it is taking a big risk. However the legal additives are often a very long list indeed, depending on the local rules in that country/wine region.
My favourite ‘additive’ is the old ports / table wines that Joe Grilli uses in topping off his sparkling red after disgorgement.
regards
Ian
Raises a good question Larry.
Does it really matter? I say no. We’ve been raised to think certain things are proper and not proper in wine. Usually, that is a function of tradition as that was all that was available in the “old days” to use. Does that make it right or wrong now? IMO, it shouldn’t as technology changes over time and at some point certain techniques will also change along with it.
So If you like a wine for what is in the bottle should you suddenly change your mind about it later because you found out it used oak chips or something else “controversial” you didn’t know about? IMO if you do you have personal issues you need to deal with that this board can’t help with. ![[soap.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/a/a7ea1fffd3ef237e8f19d17a83270ad8452218ca.gif "soap"){kind=small}
One of my favorite things to point out to people who talk about the old days and ways of wine making and how it’s always the best is a certain Vintage Port. Most people assume Dow’s VP is foot treaded in old lagars like most top end Vintage Port’s. Couldn’t be farther from the truth. Since 1963 all Dow’s Vintage Port has been made using large concrete autovinification tanks. Yet it makes some crazy great and legendary Vintage Ports. That always makes people pause and their usually not sure how to continue the conversation after.
The winery I worked for 20 years ago was always experimenting with things but these experiments were not commercial products. Seeing fruit extract in the winery really can’t be connected to the wineries product for sale unless there is addition information on what they are being used for. That being said, where I live now there is a booming market for wine with added fruit flavor. Full disclosure on the label of these additions however so no one is trying to hide anything.
Agreed. Ultimately we are talking about a beverage, nothing more. If it tastes good and is made within legal and sanitary standards; why does it matter?
The only thing that really matters is the finished product. I do think, however, that if they choose to add any extra ingredients they should list it on the label. To add undisclosed ingredients would be dishonest and misleading.
I found this circular/restrictions, fwiw: http://www.ttb.gov/industry_circulars/archives/1964/64-19.html
Adam Lee
Siduri Wines
Kenny, Greg, Doug, Larry, Andy, et al.,
I don’t like oaky wines, so why in the world would I seek out wines that are intentionally oaked with chips or staves? If a producer uses new or newish oak barrels (and there are legitimate winemaking reasons to do so) and there’s some temporary oakiness to the wines, I’ll live with that but generally try to give the wines enough time for the residual oak to disappear.
The argument that nothing matters if it tastes good is asking for more cleverness in the wine products labs, IMO, but if you want to add non-dairy creamer to your coffee, be my guest.
I understand that wine doesn’t make itself, but how about well-grown fruit from an appropriate site, handled carefully, make a good wine but skip the funny business. It’s not so complicated.
A wine writer once asked me for a list of winemakers who would be willing to talk about their blending petite syrah into pinot noir. I suggested he first ask them about cheating on their wives…with Cub Scouts.
Adding raspberry concentrate to pinot noir or cassis to cabernet would be
1/illegal
2/hard to do in a meaningful way
3/expensive
4/fun to try
I know of winemakers who have added MegaRed to cheaper wines and one hears rumors about winemakers who add it to expensive wines at bottling. MegaRed is expensive and is used to sweeten and color wine.
When I was in retail, I once added some raspberry wine to a red Burgundy. It was supposed to be a joke. Everyone fell for it so bad I could not bear to tell anybody. We sold twenty cases in one day. Fortunately the wine turned out to be great.
Clendenen told me how somebody once marinated some herbs in one of his Au Bon Climat pinots and an MW guessed the wine to be Domaine Dujac. Hmm, I’ve always wondered about all the tarragon and rosemary he grows.
Re Adam Lee: One of Adam’s friends, a fellow known for his old-vine Zins, told me that whenever he has a problem and cannot sleep at night, he always calls Adam. He usually answers on the second ring. Funny, I can never get Adam to answer during the day. Maybe he’s a vampire!
I remember when this scandal surfaced:
I think it’s more common to use yeasts and other products to generate flavors that you want that aren’t already in the grapes you have. Products like Stabavin from gum arabic are used for texture enhancement and a sweet impression. Those things are more common than people probably care to admit. Jugs of grenadine or fruit syrup or whatever? I’ve heard about that for years and years but I’ve never seen anything. I think there are easier ways to mess with wines if you want to, and Laffort and other company catalogs are full of the details if you’re interested.
It’s a neat question. I’ve had a grand cru burgundy or two that on release had such a distinct aroma of orange peel that I wondered if someone had dropped a couple of oranges into the vat 
.
That was part of the question. The other part, you didn’t really answer (not that you have to). Are chips or staves different than aging in barrel?
But I guarantee you can’t tell the difference by tasting the wine between a relatively small amount of oak chips and some 2nd and 3rd use barrels. There’s practically no difference on the effect on the wine itself between those scenarios if the chips are used in really old, truly neutral, oak barrels or in a tank with micro-oxygenation. So, if the effects are exactly the same, why say one is not acceptable? Would you stop liking a wine that you previously loved if you found out they were doing that? On some level, every winemaking decision is “funny business” in that the process alters what would naturally happen.
Andy, I love the Dow’s analogy. Certainly, some of those “spoofed” wines are truly great.
I am going to make this one post only …
As noted above its very expensive to do such things in a meaningful way … Also illegal … So is oral sex in some states …
I know of such dirty things being I am in the fruit wine business… Without outing anyone … I know of blueberry (Mel your such a rebel ) being added to some wines to get better scores, as was done with other additives cherry, blackberry etc… Please don’t be naive thinking all men are angles, they are corrupt and greedy …
Why is no one naming these wineries?
Yes, in my opinion; chips and staves are used to imitate barrel aging. They’re makeup, not the real thing.
There are certain incidental side effects with certain medications: nitroglycerin might give you a headache but, more importantly, it opens up your blood vessels allowing more blood flow to your heart; that’s its intended purpose, the headache is just a temporary side effect
But if I just punch you in the head, all you get is the headache.
If the best that oak chips and staves can do is to imitate older barrels (3rd use?), why would anyone bother? I think the whole point of their use is to pretend that your wine has been aged in a new or newish barrels, no?
And we’ve been through this already, I know that wines don’t make themselves, but, no, not everything done in the cellar is ''funny business". And, as I also said, if you want whatever in your food or drink (artificial this or that), fine, go right ahead, live it up; if your only standard is whether or not you can tell real vanilla from artificial vanilla, then the Walmarts of the world have aisles and aisles of “food” products for you.
I still get to choose how I spend my money.
Have tasted a couple PNs which I could swear had a few cases of Luden’s cherry cough drops added to the wine. Imitation cherry appears to be a common additive.