I was thinking about this while reading Dan’s thread on “Where Does Australia Go Now” and seeing some of the comments about how Australia is not just a producer of alcoholic fruitbombs. I think one of the other factors that impact wine purchasing/consumption is the individual consumer’s need/desire to experience something new.
I tend to not be one of those consumers. For example, while I love the nebbiolo grape (which is by far the #1 varietal in my cellar), I have never felt the urge to buy/try one from Palmina. Now if it were available at a very attractive pricepoint, I might consider it, but when I can easily acquire, as just two examples, legitimate expressions of the grape like the Produttori Langhe Nebbiolo for under $20 or the Produttori Normale for $25, why would I ever pay upwards of $30+ for a bottle from a producer that’s “still experimenting” with the grape (my paraphrase).
The reason I used this analogy is not to pick on Palmina (as you could certainly substitute any other current producer of California nebbiolo in here, but they are the only one I am aware of), but just to say that I think it is difficult for a wine producing country to break out of it’s perceived niche in the market because there are a certain segment of wine consumers who just don’t want to go along for the ride. Getting back to Australia, I know Rich Trimpi and several other posters mentioned how they are quite a diverse wine-producing country, and riesling was one of the varietals folks mentioned as an example. But from my personal standpoint, while I like the riesling grape, I’m only going to devote so much cellar space to it in my collection, and unless there is a compelling reason to buy, why should I displace Germany, Austria or Alsace from my cellar to make room for another country?
To do this, I think you either have to have something unique about the wine (for example, an Argentine Malbec or an Austrian gruner veltliner) or you have to establish your presence initially by undercutting the price of the established “presence” in that varietal, or you have to devote substantial (and probably country-sponsored) wine dollars to advertising/education of the wine-buying public. And right now I don’t see Australia doing any of that, which is why I think their “other wines” are going to have trouble gaining footing in the overall wine marketplace.
Yes, I agree. Australia will not save itself by pushing Riesling, PN, etc. to the world. People have enough great examples of those from other regions. They will live or die on the quality of the Shiraz they are producing, because it’s been established that they can do it exceptionally well, and more importantly, uniquely. You can’t get a taste like it in any other Syrah anywhere in the world. Same with Argentine Malbec, French PN, Cali PN, German Riesling, and on.
There’s so much good, overachieving wine, one has to draw the line somewhere. My philosophy is to experiment occasionally, but leave it to the locals to play with oddball grape varieties from their region.
I tend to agree with Bob. If the grape(s) can be vinified to provide an outstanding expression in a region, I will buy. I will not buy just for curiosity.
My favorite Aussie wines have always been Hunter Valley Semillons. Fantastically food friendly, will age and improve for a very long time and great values.
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I’m rather like Bob in that some grapes sing to me from one region and all other variations are rather odd. Sanigovese and Nebbiolo are two of these. I’ve never really found interesting expressions of these grapes outside of Italy. I don’t mean ‘like Italian versions’ I just mean interesting. I had a very nice Sangiovese from Altamura a few years ago at lunch somewhere in Napa, but I ordered it out ofu curiosity and, while good, it didn’t grab me. In the other direction, Zinfandel from places outside of certain areas of Cali doesn’t do it for me.
Other varietals make good, interesting high quality wines that go in a direction I’m just not that interested in - much OR and CA Pinot is this way for me (though older William Selyems do it for me.) Chenin Blanc outside of the Loire too. This is more about style than quality.
And a few varietals make compelling wines from several different places - Riesling, Cabernet Sauv (and the various blends), Pinot Noir. I’ll try an Aussie Riesling, but it’s got to have something I can’t get from other established regions. So does a CA Cab blend, a WA Cab blend, etc.
Ultimately, though, I’m after wines that excite me and if someone turned me on to a Aussie riesling I’d not ignore it because the region is better known here for Shiraz.
Yes, I agree. Australia will not save itself by pushing Riesling, PN, etc. to the world.
Riesling is not actually new to Australia - Clare Valley - Wikipedia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Your perceptions of Aussie wine are the issue… in other words, it’s a marketing challenge for them vs a winemaking one. Their mistake was to set up exactly the equivalence you’ve internalized… Australian wine = Shiraz. Awesome while that worked but it’s the old "all eggs in one basket’ problem.
I have had some great Aussie Rieslings. They were very different than anything else I have had, and I liked them for what they were, never thinking I should get me some German stuff just ‘because’. Ask my friend Greg Tatar. He sat right next to me during a big tasting of them.
Bob, being willing to explore new wines doesn’t require much cellar “displacing” or giving up “devotion” to wines you love. Personally, I wish I had more cellar diversity. A bottle doesn’t need to be “great” (or rival a mortgage payment) to pair beautifully with a particular dish.
That said, the Aussies and many other producer nations/regions have a tough row to hoe to re-establish or break in to the US fine wine market.
I think I am in the minority, but I like to experiment. I like to try everything once, so I will take a chance. I have had a few different Palmina’s (as your example) and I don’t disagree with your assessment. They are, however, a different beast than a Piemonte Nebbiolo and IMO worth checking out. But, if you did not want to, then how about their Arneis? Not as good as Giacosa IMO, but certainly an interesting take.
I don’t drink much Australian, but it Bindi (sp?) Pinot’s were available locally or more Hunter Valley whites, I would buy them on occasion. What we tend to see locally is more versions on a theme. I don’t mind an occasional Grateful Palate wine, but just because the label changes, I don’t see much difference in the wines.
More so, when I think diversity though, I am always interested in new wine growing regions or new varietals (for me) in older regions. Frankly, I have friends who drink almost nothing but great Burgs and Bordeaux (and maybe Rhones). In a micro view, they drink better wines than I, but I would personally get so bored with the diet. Each to their own though.
I long ago found that for me, most of the time, I would rather drink something interesting than great.
Sure, it’s not new to Australia, but do they do it as well as the Germans? Note that I’m not saying “just like” the Germans, I’m saying “as well”. Aussie Shiraz has a unique taste profile unlike Syrah from anywhere else, but can easily get as good - in its own way. If you can honestly tell me there are Australian Rieslings that deserve classic scores of 95+, like some German producers can do in their sleep year after year (cough - JJ Prum - cough) then I will admit it’s a marketing, not a winemaking, problem.
Yes, I know that the average wine consumer doesn’t buy 95+ wines every day, but it seems to me that the best way for a region to be noticed by consumers and picked up by importers is to be able to output world-class wines, even if the vast majority of wines imported and bought will be lower-end bottlings.
There’s nothing magical about German Riesling, it’s just that grape grown in certain places and vinified in certain ways. Yes, all of that is guided by centuries of accumulated knowledge, but at the end of the day it’s not magic. It’s the same for Alsace and Austria - the grape has been grown there for a long time and has obtained a certain level of respect among Riesling aficionados.
Saying other places cannot grow Riesling as well as those places is inertia, tradition and, frankly, close-mindedness. Yes, I’m looking at you. First you say ‘as well as’ but not the same as Germany. Ok. Then you appeal to a score (Whose? Parker’s? Who gives a rat’s ass about his take?) Oh and scores = the silly notion that wine appreciation is objective. Then you contradict yourself by holding the German’s up as the standard despite what you said a few sentences previous. Finally - who the hell are you that I have to convince you? Go try some and judge for yourself. Look for acclaimed versions and TRY THEM.
Try again, this time without the prejudice and objectivist silliness.
But my comment wasn’t really a defense of Riesling in Oz, but much more to point out that it, and other grapes, have a tradition in Australia and that their attempt to market them more heavily is a marketing change, not one of winemaking. Most of the Shiraz that sold here wasn’t merely different, it was huge, extracted and over te top. it was also from a new place, one that has a certain romance for US buyers. And it was backed by a HUGE marketing push including silly, completely unjustified and delusional scores from Parker which drove a ton of the sales among wine geeks. So don’t tell me Shiraz’ success had nothing to do with marketing.
Because Grosset is better than almost any German, Austrian, or Alsatian dry riesling you can buy for the same money, and a unique expression in its own right.
Oh and scores = the silly notion that wine appreciation is objective.
Ahh, the head-spinning bankruptcy of Continental relativism. We’re not talking about your favorite wine, or my favorite wine. We’re talking about why they aren’t selling. Unless you take the absurd position that there is zero correlation between anyone’s palates, then there will be wines and wine regions preferred by the majority over others. The hard fact remains that German and Alsatian Riesling has been critically lauded to a much greater degree than Australian Riesling. They also sell better. Now if you’re going to tell me that Germans are better marketers than Australians, I’m afraid I’m going to have to die laughing before writing my response.
Yes, it was overpraised and came back to earth. But the best are still worth every point (Run Rig, Amon Ra, freakin’ Grange). So what’s the Grange of Australian Riesling? The KB of Australian Pinot Noir? See what I’m getting at?
The idea of a country’s reputation in wine is becoming less important in the marketing arena. Brand and brand loyalty is rapidly supplanting it. Look at Layer Cake, a brand that is completely trans-locale and inspires loyalty to the brand alone.
Um, first, I’m in the US. Second, they’re not selling because a) they’re more or less unknown here and in case you’ve not noticed there’s a rather large recession happening right now and it’s not the best time to push new premium categories. Please try to connect your brain as you type.
Unless you take the absurd position that there is zero correlation between anyone’s palates, then there will be wines and wine regions preferred by the majority over others. The hard fact remains that German and Alsatian Riesling has been critically lauded to a much greater degree than Australian Riesling. They also sell better. Now if you’re going to tell me that Germans are better marketers than Australians, I’m afraid I’m going to have to die laughing before writing my response.
German has centuries of acclaim for Riesling. At this point it doesn’t need marketing to sell it to the people who are buying Riesling. Australian wine does since it’s new to most outside of Oz. Since you seem to be a bear of little critical thinking ability, I’ll do the kind thing and point out why no Riesling sells well in the US - the varietal isn’t desired, mostly due to the misapprehension that it’s inherently sweet.
Yes, it was overpraised and came back to earth. But the best are still worth every point (Run Rig, Amon Ra, freakin’ Grange). So what’s the Grange of Australian Riesling? The KB of Australian Pinot Noir? See what I’m getting at?
First, POINTS DON"T MEAN SHIT. I’m sorry, but if you still worship at the Altar of Parker Points, we’re not going to agree - I don’t think wines can be objectively ranked period, much less by Parker.
Second…KB??? Get a grip. Kosta Browne epitomizes points driven fame. The Pinots are nothing special (good, not amazing) and only grabbed the following they had because of the Parker and eBob raving and the fad for overblown Pinot. Incidentally, note that I said nothing about Aussie PN - it’s not that all varietals can be grown everywhere it’s the point you TOTALLY MISSED that you were wrong about Riesling being somehow new to the winemaking scene there.
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