How does Leroy do it?

[Emmanuel_Menger]

Keith: i believe you are mistaken. For the sake of clarity, I hate leroy pricings. But they have one merit: they dont allow resellers to ripp off the consumer. What I absolutely hate is buying wines from merchants selling Coche Dury wines at €150 for a village or rousseau Chambertin at €1000 when released at €170. THIS is insane and they should no more get their allocation. Fortunately they are some merchants that do not abuse. Everybody needs to get money. But when producer gets one, and seller 10, I believe there is something stupid in the system.

[Keith_Levenberg]

Resellers aren’t ripping people off when they charge what they can get any more than Lalou is ripping people off when she charges what she can get. I don’t understand the logic behind your thinking that her wines are intrinsically more valuable just because the greed is coming from the source rather than the distribution chain.

[Mike_de_Lange]

@Emmanuel Menger

Keith: i believe you are mistaken. For the sake of clarity, I hate leroy pricings. But they have one merit: they dont allow resellers to ripp off the consumer. What I absolutely hate is buying wines from merchants selling Coche Dury wines at €150 for a village or rousseau Chambertin at €1000 when released at €170. THIS is insane and they should no more get their allocation. Fortunately they are some merchants that do not abuse. Everybody needs to get money. But when producer gets one, and seller 10, I believe there is something stupid in the system.

I’ve been saying this for years. However, as long as the domaine owners prefer a steady paycheck in advance over taking charge and getting what is rightfully theirs nothing will change.

[Emmanuel_Menger]

Keith, I did not say that I reward Leroy moemre than Roumier because of the different pricings. I said: in addition to the quality difference, I dont want to overpay a Roumier just because speculators / merchants bet on it

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Emmanuel Menger

Keith, I did not say that I reward Leroy moemre than Roumier because of the different pricings. I said: in addition to the quality difference, I dont want to overpay a Roumier just because speculators / merchants bet on it

There are only two ways to look at this. Either you are overpaying for both because that’s just too much money for a bottle of wine. Or you are overpaying for neither because that’s what the market says they’re worth. But it is silly for you to think that you’d be overpaying for Roumier, but not for Leroy.

[Don_Cornwell]

@Keith Levenberg

@Emmanuel Menger

Keith, I did not say that I reward Leroy moemre than Roumier because of the different pricings. I said: in addition to the quality difference, I dont want to overpay a Roumier just because speculators / merchants bet on it

There are only two ways to look at this. Either you are overpaying for both because that’s just too much money for a bottle of wine. Or you are overpaying for neither because that’s what the market says they’re worth. But it is silly for you to think that you’d be overpaying for Roumier, but not for Leroy.

Amen Keith.

[Emmanuel_Menger]

I dont get your point: if we assume that 2 bottles have the same quality. If A is released at 100 then sold for 1000, whereas B is released at 800 then sold for 1000. Is it so silly to buy B rather than A ? I assume I cant get A or B at domaine prices

What I dislike is giving 80% of the value of a good to the middle man

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Emmanuel Menger

I dont get your point: if we assume that 2 bottles have the same quality. If A is released at 100 then sold for 1000, whereas B is released at 800 then sold for 1000. Is it so silly to buy B rather than A ?

Yes, if that’s your only reason to buy B rather than A.

[Emmanuel_Menger]

This is why I added that quality or the perception I have of the quality is the #1 factor. Then comes this question of pricing

[Nick_Gangas]

@Emmanuel Menger

I dont get your point: if we assume that 2 bottles have the same quality. If A is released at 100 then sold for 1000, whereas B is released at 800 then sold for 1000. Is it so silly to buy B rather than A ? I assume I cant get A or B at domaine prices

What I dislike is giving 80% of the value of a good to the middle man

But in regards to the Maison wines is she not the middleperson ?

[JOHNM94]

@L e o F r o k i c

@Robert.Fleming

Not a knock on Leroy - far from it - but I find the Dujac portfolio to be more aromatically thriiling across the board.

So I would be interested in thoughts on the more general question: How do some producers consistently make wines that are more aromatically compelling than their peers?

A lot has to do with the Maceration and Fermentation techniques. If you do pre-fermentation cold soak and ferment your wine at the lower/colder temperatures your wine will show more aromatics and that “feminent” Pinot character. Higher fermentation temperatures will extract more from the grapes thus aromatics might be “hiden”

I agree, Leo. Its interesting because Domaine Leroy does not practice any of the pre-fermentation/cold soak stage. The whole cluster grapes are just put into the vats, uncrushed and not pressed. Fermentation is very slow but I’ve read the maceration only occurs during and after fermentation. Leroy briefly hits 33 degrees during this time to get a little bit more fat but this is only brief. Cuvaison lasts a good 21 days on average.

I’m intrigued but what you wrote on higher temperature fermentations. Apparantly Louis Jadot ferments at around 35 degrees (top tier before you run into problems). Perhaps this is why the Jadot wines are not as immediate when they are young and a bit “hidden”?

I would be curious to know your thoughts!! Thanks

[JOHNM94]

@Charlie Fu

@ryancurry

I’m with you on the aromatics. I drink with a guy that almost exclusively cellars leroy. They are always super expressive and generous aromatically. My only knock on them is that a lot of the wines smell the same to me. Drinking them side by side, sometime the terroir is apparent, and sometimes they smell so so similar. That said, they are delicious wines!

Agreed. They smell similar but similarly fantastic! Although I wish I drank a lot with a guy with a deep Leroy cellar

Charlie,

Do you think the similarity could be a result from the whole clusters? Leroy wines almost age like port and always go the distance, much longer than people expect because of the extra midpalate sap I would imagine (low yields). It has been my experience that any domaine that uses a high proportion of stems are not wines that are “expressive” or terroir transparent when they are young.

Perhaps Leroy just needs more time to show the terroir.

[Gerhard_P]

@Claude Kolm

Curious. Usually Leroy bottles the three lieux-dits separately – Allots, Lavières, and Bas de Combe. Perhaps production was so small in 1993 that they were combined.

As far as I´m concerned: in 1993 the yields were so low - some 9 hl/ha due to the refusal of Lalou Bize-Leroy to spray against rot etc. that almost all NSG has been bottled together, including the Vignerondes 1er Cru … only Boudots been bottled seperately.

[CFu]

@JOHNM94

@Charlie Fu

@ryancurry

I’m with you on the aromatics. I drink with a guy that almost exclusively cellars leroy. They are always super expressive and generous aromatically. My only knock on them is that a lot of the wines smell the same to me. Drinking them side by side, sometime the terroir is apparent, and sometimes they smell so so similar. That said, they are delicious wines!

Agreed. They smell similar but similarly fantastic! Although I wish I drank a lot with a guy with a deep Leroy cellar

Charlie,

Do you think the similarity could be a result from the whole clusters? Leroy wines almost age like port and always go the distance, much longer than people expect because of the extra midpalate sap I would imagine (low yields). It has been my experience that any domaine that uses a high proportion of stems are not wines that are “expressive” or terroir transparent when they are young.

Perhaps Leroy just needs more time to show the terroir.

Who knows. Could be the ultra concentration of flavors mixed with whole clusters that give it a similar sweetness and spice. All I know is I have loved the 88/89/90s I’ve had in the past year and they still have tons of time to go

[JOHNM94]

@Jeremy Holmes

Like anything that is top of the class, it is not just one thing that makes the wines great, it is all of the little things that you don’t see that add up to the overall quality of the wine. As you can’t see these little things I can’t comment on them but Leroy is indeed fastidious in their vineyard work. They harvest ripe, concentrated fruit from extraordinarily low yields. They get the best barrels that have been toasted and cured to perfection. They elevage with the utmost of care holding the wines in the cellar for extended periods of time until they deem the wines ready to be released. They pay for high quality glass and cork. Have rigid rules for their distributors regarding shipping and distribution and last but not least they use stems (as do my other two favourite red Burgundy producers DRC and Dujac). Stem inclusion coupled with ripe concentrated fruit gives those beautiful smoky, sappy, floral perfume traits in the wine.

The Leroy wines very much have a cellar signature and I very much like that signature. Given that the Domaine wines have only been made since 1988 and these are extraordinarily concentrated wines, I don’t think we’ve seen too many of their wines reach their full apogee yet and yet most of us agree their wines are consistently somewhere near the top of the Burgundy pecking order.

Cheers
Jeremy

Jeremy,

Do you know to what extent Domaine Leroy ages the red wines on their lees (similar to Lucien Le Moine)? That may play a part in creating a more voluminous wine as well. Apparently, they do not engage in any debourbage (lees settling) before transferring to the cask. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

[D_Wirsig]

Haven’t had any Leroy but just saw some Bourgognes at a local shop. Do they give a glimpse to the Leroy profile or not really worth the name tariff?

[Jeremy_Holmes]

I am not sure John.

[Ron_Movich]

@Gerhard P.

@Claude Kolm

Curious. Usually Leroy bottles the three lieux-dits separately – Allots, Lavières, and Bas de Combe. Perhaps production was so small in 1993 that they were combined.

As far as I´m concerned: in 1993 the yields were so low - some 9 hl/ha due to the refusal of Lalou Bize-Leroy to spray against rot etc. that almost all NSG has been bottled together, including the Vignerondes 1er Cru … only Boudots been bottled seperately.

I have seen some 1993 Vignerondes and Boudots, in addition to the NSG (all domaine). So I think only the 3 lieux-dits are combined in the 1993 NSG, and none of the 1ers.