How does Leroy do it?

[SarahE]

I’ve had great luck, albeit a few years ago, with case plus quantities of the '64 GE and the '69 Echezeaux that were from Premier Cru.

[Roger_Nellans]

@Don Cornwell

Among that type of purchasing mistakes I made were the 1959 Grands Echezeaux, 1962 La Romanee, 1964 Grands Echezeaux, and 1969 Echezeaux. In retrospect, I’m amazed that I managed to rationalize continuing to buy these ‘apparent bargains’ for as long as I did. Most disheartening was the brand new release of 1962 Musigny last year – priced at over $2K per bottle and completely DOA when we opened it at Michael Zadikian’s 50th birthday celebration despite coming from a direct seller of Leroy from France refrigerated from door to door.

Interesting…I thought the 64 Grands Echezeaux was spectacular…at least the 2 times that I have had it.

[ybarselah]

have had the '64 GE (or whatever the vintage and wine actually was??) several times and it was always stellar - but very young seeming.

[jcoley3]

@ybarselah

have had the '64 GE (or whatever the vintage and wine actually was??) several times and it was always stellar - but very young seeming.

Looking back through camera phone pics…+1 (not with Yaacov).

[ToddFrench]

@J. Ashourian

Last week some buddies and I opened a '93 Leroy NSG. Not a lieu dit, just the regular village. I have to mention that my experience with Leroy is somewhat limited. What came out of the bottle was aromatically nothing short of spectacular. The nose soared from the glass with spice, dark fruits, and just a hint of cherry and blood. Even though the finish was somewhat clipped and the mid-palate flavor was hard to find, every bottle of Leroy I open seems to have the most opulent aromatics when compared to any other wine of the same village/vineyard/producer/vintage. Even the 2004s. What is it that they do different? How do they achieve these characteristics so consistently as compared to a different producer?

This.

I know I’m late to the discussion, and my experience with fine Burgundy is limited, but no doubt this is what I KNOW about Leroy.

[Peter_Chiu]

Hmmm…your best may not be my best. Given its high, high prices, I agree with some of the points in Don’s comments :

…tasted more similar than different.

…you couldn’t tell one from the other. They all tasted the same - big, sweet blud/black monster that really really taste like burgundy…

thought the 1990s from Leroy were over the top in terms of ripeness and that all of the wines tasted more similar than different. I owned all of the top grand crus, most in case quantity or better, and, frankly, even 15 years after the vintage you couldn’t tell one from the other. They all tasted the same – big, sweet blue/black fruit monsters that didn’t really taste like burgundy. Blindfolded you had no chance of identifying the vineyard it came from.

[Ian_Dorin]

I think you have to break these up in to three eras.
88-93
94-00
01-Present

The early years proved good, but there was a learning experience for sure. Porcheret’s impact seemed to have had a mark on the wines, yet the quality was high, it just comes down to whether or not you like the wines. FWIW, if you don’t like 1990s in general, I don’t think the 90s at Leroy will make you a lover of the vintage. The Pommard Vignots is a monster (but I did like it), so I may toss out that vintage in general for this discussion (although Gevrey Combottes is decadent). The quality of the 91s and 93s is simply staggering (and the 92s defy the vintage, so cool!)

I haven’t had enough of the second group to make an generalizations, but open to others opinions. The ratings seem to be all over the map during this period, which makes me think the quality was uneven.

The last group seems to have been where the the blend of style and substance reached their harmony, and quality is outstanding across the board.

Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

[Paul_H_Galli]

The Leroy 1959 Musigny is the greatest Red Burg of my lifetime.
My wife and I got to share the bottle over several hours.
Consumed around 1982.

As for the 1999s, the Fontenys is quite nice…

TTT

[Peter_Chiu]

Interesting comments re 3 groups of style. Doubtful I have enough experience to comment let alone to agree ( or disagree ).

My main point remain her Domaine’s wines are too pricey and there are others…

[Tom_Blach]

Good wines in my limited experience though I have troubled by stemminess on the one hand and a slight vulgarity on the other. Like many other excessive wines, though, I think they are tamed by age.
What I am happy to have discovered is that there is no necessity whatever to pay such vast amounts of money for completely satisfying bottles.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Tom Blach

Good wines in my limited experience though I have troubled by stemminess on the one hand and a slight vulgarity on the other. Like many other excessive wines, though, I think they are tamed by age.
What I am happy to have discovered is that there is no necessity whatever to pay such vast amounts of money for completely satisfying bottles.

What I am happy to have discovered is that there is no necessity whatever to pay such vast amounts of money for completely satisfying bottles

Here is an example re vast amount of money - Leroy 1995 Musigny was released and retailed at CA $675 whereas the same wine by Vogure was CA $160; Drouhin at CA$135 and Prieur at CA $ 115 ( which was approx. 1 bottle for 4 to 6 bs… )

[Emmanuel_Menger]

Peter: Vogue owns 2/3 of musigny vineyard, whereas Leroy only owns 0.27a (600 bttles). I believe this is the price you have to pay for rarity.
I was recently offered a musigny roumier and 2 musigny vogue for a musigny leroy. Not sufficient to strike a deal to my opinion

[Don_Cornwell]

@Emmanuel Menger

Peter: Vogue owns 2/3 of musigny vineyard, whereas Leroy only owns 0.27a (600 bttles). I believe this is the price you have to pay for rarity.
I was recently offered a musigny roumier and 2 musigny vogue for a musigny leroy. Not sufficient to strike a deal to my opinion

Emmanuel:

If rarity is the key, then your statement that pricing is proporitional to the rarity factor is way off (at least for “on release” pricing). Leroy produces two barrels of Musigny a vintage, whiile Roumier makes only one.

As for your unwillingness to accept a trade of a Roumier Musigny and two Vogue Mus for one Leroy, I suppose that much depends on the vintage, but one might question your judgment. Take the 1993 vintage as an example. Probably the best vintage ever for both domaines. The Heritage auction catalog I received yesterday includes both Roumier and Leroy. Lot 218 is a magnum of 93 Roumier Musigny. The minimum bid is $8,000 and the estimated range is $10,000 to $14,000. Lot 263 is two bottles of 1993 Leroy. The minimum bid is $4,000 and the estimated range is $5,000 to $7,000.

[Don_Cornwell]

@Roger Nellans

Interesting…I thought the 64 Grands Echezeaux was spectacular…at least the 2 times that I have had it.

Roger:

Looking at Burghound’s currently posted review (a tasting note from April 2006) perhaps explains the variation:

• I’ve encountered more than some bottle variation here, ranging from stunning to disappointing. The best bottles are wonderfully spicy, sweet and rich with still vibrant and punchy robust and powerful full-bodied flavors that offer both excellent complexity and a velvety finish that goes on and on. I’ve had this wine perhaps 10 times and my score below is indicative of the average bottle though the range is from 94 to 87. 91

Here’s a tasting note from the last bottle I tasted at David Parker’s 50th birthday dinner on October 27, 2007 – I’ll include the other two wines as well, since one of them was the 62 La Romanee.

• Flight Three
  1962 Leroy La Romanee
  Medium garnet color with a clearly lighter red/clear edge; some cherry and peppermint aromas; light to medium weight – clearly lacks the power of most of the La Romanees I’ve had (but I haven’t had many old ones besides the ’62); light, fairly simple cherry/strawberry fruit with a light earth undertone; fairly abbreviated finish. Not very impressive given the pricing. 91

1964 Leroy Grands Echezaux
Rusty red color with lots of brown and amber; distinct brown sugar aromas with some faint cherry; the flavors are very faded and the fruit is utterly gone. Very disappointing for its pedigree and the fact it’s Leroy. Rating assigned almost purely on the nice secondary aromas. 85?

1983 Leroy Musigny
Very deep violet red color with a lot of brown at the edge; some strong earthy, mushroomy tones in the aromas and the flavors; the flavors have some cherry but strong piquancy and a very sour, off finish. 84

One other bottle of 64 GE was corked and the third, opened at home, was quite similar to the one described above. I was pretty bummed out because the 64 Leroys have such a great reputation according to my friends Geoff Troy and John Tilson.

[Peter_Chiu]

@Emmanuel Menger

Peter: Vogue owns 2/3 of musigny vineyard, whereas Leroy only owns 0.27a (600 bttles). I believe this is the price you have to pay for rarity.
I was recently offered a musigny roumier and 2 musigny vogue for a musigny leroy. Not sufficient to strike a deal to my opinion

I live in Montreal Canada. The importer of Roumier’s wines receives only 2 bottles of Roumier’s Musigny ( holding of 0.10 ha ) each year. Roumier’s Musigny is equal, if not more expensive in US secondary ( or grey market ) than Leroy.

I know before Burghound was born Leroy was more expensive but not now…

I understand your point which is quite valid but I had been there. The importer fo Leroy’s Domaine wines in Quebec, Canada in the mid 90s went belly-up. He got 6 bs of Musigny only each year. I bought 2 at regular pice and got 2 more bottles of Musigny plus other on Fire-Sale. I tried Leroy’s Musigny with others ( Vogure, Drouhin and Prieur ) from the same vintage years.

It is worth it ?

Definitely not for me…as I am not in that league to open any wine of such a price.

Regarding your exchange - if they are from the same vintage year, I would take it as I never have a chance to taste a Roumier and let alone a Faiveley (0.0338 ha)

Thanks for your message and lovely discussion…

[Emmanuel_Menger]

Don: I did not compare roumier vs leroy. To me both of them are extremely rare. Paradoxically, I believe the leroy is even more difficult to get (at least in France) than the roumier. At least in recent vintages.
Just said 600 btlles vs probably more than 5000 for vogue, this can make a huge difference
Now regarding the relevance of the envisaged trade (based on the '08 vintage):

• from what I read, heard, the leroy seems to be really better than the roumier and I do not buy Vogue
• I dont want to pay a roumier 10x its release price because some wine merchants / traders consider this is the perfect object of speculation. I never bought wines above €1500 (monty drc was my most expensive buy) and I won’t do an exception, especially for a wine which is certainly released under €300 (correct me if I’m wrong)
• To me, Domaine Roumier does not produce cult wines as Domaine Leroy does. I wanted to have the holy grail of Leroy to better understand the “crescendo” from the villages to the grands crus and finish on a high my “relationship with Leroy wines”. I believe this is by far more interesting than the pure scarcity effect.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Though there doesn’t seem to be a cohesive answer to the question on this thread, I’ve always wondered how Leroy gets people to pay her prices. Do people really think her wines (whether from Domaine or Maison) are that much better than other really good makers’ wines, which cost a bundle less?

Long before the Domaine existed, I had some experience with the Maison wines, which were, in the early '80s super-high priced. I marveled mainly at her marketing and ability to get people to pay such exorbitant prices for wines that were hard to compare, as they were not the same vintages as other good producers were then releasing.

LIke I say, I’ve wondered; I don’t know. I’ve always looked at her/their wines as horrible values, and never aspired to own any as a result. But, I do see some credible people (with credible budgets, I guess) liking them, so…I’m curious.

The trophy wine category is, I think, fueled by something very different from what fuels me and others…including budget.

[Emmanuel_Menger]

Stuart: the only thing leroy does is reducing the margins of merchants to its minimum. I personnally prefer buying a wine at €400 knowing it is released at €300 than buying another one the same price but released at €50. At least I know where the money goes

[Keith_Levenberg]

@Emmanuel Menger

Stuart: the only thing leroy does is reducing the margins of merchants to its minimum. I personnally prefer buying a wine at €400 knowing it is released at €300 than buying another one the same price but released at €50. At least I know where the money goes

You realize this is insane, right? You are discriminating against a product solely because its producer underprices it relative to its fair market value?
Just because Lalou-Bize Leroy is obsessed with getting top dollar for her wines doesn’t make them intrinsically more valuable than those of a producer who, for whatever reason, is content to have their middlemen make more money off their wines than they are.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

As the flip side to that…I feel “sorry” for some very very well known producers (whose products are, IMO, every bit as good as Leroy’s) who see the prices paid for their top wines at retail in the US…and who, I know, are charging so much less at the winery. Either way someone is gouging, IMO. Maybe I like these producers even more to see that it’s not them. They feel they have no control. Leroy obviously is in control…and has always been. She had the resources…and the lack of financial need…to control things from grapegrowing to US distribution to pricing.

I think that’s why her fellow “heritiers” (inheritors) at DRC, including her sister and her family, booted her out of active participation?