Sorry for this somewhat ‘novice’ question, but I often see a TN where the taster says he/she can tell the wine was whole cluster. How can you tell? What are the defining characteristcis of a whole cluster made wine?
Thanks in advance.
Lots of variables here with fruit source, varieties, amounts, etc but some things that speak out to me are asparagus type notes and pepper. That’s usually in wines where its showing a lot over the fruit. Often it adds sort of a background spice or slight woodsy character to more wines with more fruit concentration.
Plus, if you’re pulling twigs and leaves from your mouth…that’s a pretty good indicator. ![[wink.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/04707e6a7bbb03e0153e349d8a9270d30e1e9525.gif "wink"){kind=small}
It’s sort of hard to put into words, but once you taste a wine that shows the telltale signs in spades you’ll have no trouble recognizing it even when it shows less subtly. The 2006 Rhys Alpine Vineyard is a good example, Dujac makes many candidates too.
Basically you get an acidity that really does suggest stalky sap and often a woodiness that’s very distinct from toasted oak woodiness - almost like the scent of oiled furniture. Like other stamps of the winemaking process, this will all become less and less noticeable as time goes by.
but I often see a TN where the taster says he/she can tell the wine was whole cluster.
First, often as not, you can probably discount that.
Second, sometimes you do get a quality that suggests tannins from stems, rather than skins. And sometimes that really is from stems. Other times it just seems like it is.
All I will add to the thorough explanations above is that, in my experience, certain AVAs express slightly different ‘woodsy’ or ‘background spice’ characteristics which are fun to explore.
My first experience with understanding 100% whole cluster vs. partial whole cluster fermentation was with Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir. It was clearly evident as to the influence of stem inclusion - and most importantly, a great experience/lesson. I am sure you could even narrow it down to certain vineyards or even plots of certain vineyards but I haven’t gone that far as of yet…
I think you can readily tell some wines are whole cluster, actually. When well done, stem inclusion can introduce a sort of underbrush or stoney scent and frequently roses and cinnamon as well. When poorly done stems can smell green, vegetal, sometimes like watermelon rind or pine sap.
I think Dujac, Leroy, Bize, Chandon de Briailles, DRC, Courcel are some great producers to get a sense of what stems smell like in Pinot when well done.
Yoni, since I often use this descriptor (when I sense it), I can offer some of what I think it is perceptually. Like others above have said in their own way, to me it comes across as menthol, herbal, and like Keith said, hard to put to words. These same perceptors will also show in the palate. I like the aromatic that whole cluster provides, which you will get in wines like Copain, Shane, and even Melville. I can say I prefer it less in pinot than syrah, as my experiences with WC in pinot is that it disturbs the balance in pinot that I think is so beautiful when one finds it. With syrah, for me, let 'er rip, ala Shane Finley and Wells Guthrie.
Interesting stuff. I kind of think I can tell, but I could be fooling myself. Even experienced winos will sometimes say there is too much oak in a wine that has not seen oak, for example. My conception is that the stems should add some complexity and distinct tannins as noted above, but then again the winemakers who use whole cluster routinely may dial in other factors that make the wines taste more “complex.” It would be instructive if someone like Mike Officer would make two barrels of the same wine-- one whole cluster and the other destemmed-- as a direct comparison (as he did with filtered vs. non-filtered, and cork vs screwcap). Of course there is barrel-to-barrel variation so even this is not definitive but at least a college try.
I can relate to the mentions of herbal or menthol, but the one that nailed it for me is the ‘sap’ quality - I think that really is what I find in a ‘stemmy’ wine, and I quite like it most of the time.
I opened a 2004 Copain Madder Lake tonight. Deifnitely whole cluster in the wine, although it has begun to work into the wine and add to it quite nicely.
A recent inexpensive burg that I had that showed really overt whole cluster winemaking, but in a good way (IMHO of course) was the 2006 Chandon de Briailles Savigny Fourneaux. It was $23 at K&L but looks like it’s gone at that price. Still even at $30-35 a very nice wine and a great example of whole cluster burg from a somewhat more humble terroir and at ~1/10th the tarrif of a great Dujac/Leroy/DRC…
At the right prices I’m a fan of 06’s… pretty good weather and pretty good consistency. Prices are coming down and it’s a little bit more forward vintage with good ripe fruit and a lot of wines that should drink well for a good while.
Does anyone know whether Vincent Girardin did whole cluster with his Romanee St Vivant fruit?
I had a VG RSV once which was so sappy that it tasted like extract of pine resin.
I don’t know the answer to that one Nathan, but I don’t think that sappiness uniquely points at whole cluster. I think you can look more at aromatics (florals, spices, stoniness), palate texture (silkiness) and tannins (stony / stemmy). I have had a lot of great classically sappy pinots that are clearly not whole cluster.
As far as where you get piney sap type character, one source is 2 year air dried wood, particularly Remond in some cases, another is a function of terroir, clonal material and ripeness. Though you certainly can get a twinge of piney character from stems, I would think other aspects would clearly point one way or the other unless the stem inclusion was only fractional. Of course this is often the case as well.
Long story short, my answer might not be terribly useful and hopefully someone else will know. I’ve not had Girardin’s RSV.
Q: How can you tell that a wine is ‘whole cluster’ when drinking?
A: You can’t.
If a red wine is vinified using enough stems, pits, and skins, you’ll get the same results as whole cluster.
Not sure I understand this, Mike. Are you saying that if you destem and then add back the stems that you can’t tell the difference from whole cluster? Because there are people who experiment with this type of “whole cluster” approach. Otherwise, using stems, pits and skins pretty much is whole cluster.
While I would agree that picking out a wine that is, say, 10% whole cluster can be difficult, there are some very telling signs of a 100% whole cluster wine if you’ve tasted enough of them. I’d go a step further and posit that you can tell a lot about the winemaking and viticulture/terroir based on how the stems show in a particular wine.